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Synergy Sessions
The landscape of the Church is shifting dramatically across nations and communities. God seems to be streamlining His Church, confronting familiar systems, strategies and areas stagnation. We must respond!
When we think of missionary work, our minds often wander to distant continents. Yet today, many Christian foundations in our Western nations are being challenged daily, and the mission fields on home soil grow ever larger.
To navigate the wild spiritual terrain of this season, we need change! For too long, the Church has focused primarily on raising up two key leadership gifts: teaching and pastoral care. While many teachers and pastors are wonderfully equipped and ready, they need people to disciple!
The question is, how do we shift into "missionary mode" in our own nations? The answer lies in including and activating the fivefold ministry working together in synergy.
But to do this we believe a reformation of the prophetic and apostolic gifts is needed in the mix.
The Synergy Sessions will dive deep into the reactivation of these gifts from Ephesians 4—exploring both how we can do this and what it will look like in the Church today.
- What does healthy prophetic and apostolic ministry actually look like?
- How do they differ from each other?
- How do they work together with evangelists, pastors, and teachers?
Their purpose is to equip believers for every calling - people with healthy and mature character—disciples who represent God’s Kingdom, not just a ministry.
Come and join this important conversation!
Through engaging teaching and thought-provoking interactive discussions with experienced leaders, we will explore how the Church can rise to meet the challenges of this critical moment in history.
Synergy Sessions
The Pathway to the Church of the Future
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Beginning with Bob Dylan lyrics, Charity Bowman-Webb shares how it is time to respond to the ‘changing times’ and how the gifts of apostolic and prophetic are foundational to the church. She shares how they have been marginalised in some contexts, resulting in their misuse. Charity also inspires us to be reignited with the wonder of God.
Then listen to Ruth Kennedy, Scott McRoberts and Heather Sutherland as they discuss through their own APEST (Apostle / Prophet / Evangelist/ Shepherd / Teacher) lens.
Intro
Speaker 00Hi, this is Alan McWilliam.
Speaker 01And this is Charity Bowman Web.
Speaker 00And we want to welcome you to the Synergy Sessions.
Speaker 01As we continue our Synergy series, I want to talk today about the pathway towards the church of the future. We know that the church has been in tremendous change for several years now. And when the enemy plunged
Teaching - The Pathway of the church of the future
Speaker 01the world into the chaos of the COVID pandemic, the Lord jumped in with his plans and purposes and used that opportunity to start to reorder and reset his church. However, we hoped that that would be a short-lived experience, yet five years later, we still find ourselves right in the middle of radical change. God has used the last few years as a catalyst to address some long overdue issues within his church and an urgent need for change. This is an ongoing process, and we need to be able to find the path towards the church of the future. So let's jump into the message which was taught live at Estreden's Gathering. I've just been on holiday, which was wonderful, in beautiful France with my sisters Faith and Hilary. We've discovered sisters' holidays in the last four years are a thing of great joy. Great joy. Lots of chill, lots of laughter, and lots of just laying things down. And so we would take to the Lord what's been weighing us down. Let's be brutally honest. And the Lord knows what's in our heart anyway. Let's be honest with God. And we laid down what we've realized was a heavy burden. And we realized we all felt the burden for the church to change. That there was a longing in our heart for the more that God actually had for his people in the future. And as we laid that down, and he's taught us fast that fasting is powerful. Don't worry about it, don't keep turning it over in your head, don't try and find a solution. Just fast it in faith and let it go. And the night before we left for France, we were all together at Hillary's house and we ended up watching the new Bob Dylan movie. Has anybody seen it? Oh, it's very cool. And when we got to France, we realized we all had a song going round and round our heads. Three days later, we realized it was going round our spirits. And it wouldn't all of us could not get this song out of our head. And eventually we were a bit slow or on holiday or something. I said, I think the Lord's speaking to us. And as we've read the lyrics of the times they are a changing, we realized that this could be a word of God for now. In the church context, there's some really hard-hitting lines that I'm going to read out to you. Now, this was written in the 60s, as you know, by Bob Dylan, in times when America was in a time of great upheaval and change, the Vietnam War was going on. But literally, we could pull it out of that era and into the church right now. Come gather round people wherever you roam and admit that the waters around you have grown, and accept it that soon you'll be drenched to the bone. If your time to you is worth saving, you'd better get swimming, or you'll sink like a stone, for the times they are a changing. Come writers and critics who prophesy with your pen and keep your eyes wide, the chance won't come again. For the wheels still in spin, and there's no tellin' who it is naming. For the loser now will later to win, for the times they are a changin'. Come senators, congressmen, and I could put there and leaders in the church. Please heed the call, don't stand in the doorway, don't block up the hall, for he that gets hurt will be he who has stalled. The battle outside outside is raging. It will soon shake your windows and rattle your walls, for the times they are a changing. Come, mothers and fathers throughout the land, and don't criticize what you can't understand. Your sons and your daughters are beyond your command. Your old road is rapidly fading. Please get out a new one if you can't lend a hand, for the times they are a changing. And I'll stop there. Hard hitting, huh? Because the Lord is breathing on the next generation, guys, just as he wants to breathe on you and I and every generation. But we don't want to be the ones who are so intent on following the old road, the old ways, don't want to change, don't want to let God do something different, don't want to wait long enough to see what that looks like. We don't want to be the ones that block that, that criticize what we don't understand and we're not willing to try and understand. I don't know about you, but I don't want to be guilty of that. And I may not know exactly what the church of the future looks like, but I know we have to find out. You see, God is leaving his church right now with no choice but to explore what the future's gonna look like. Because the more we try to stay the same, the more we try to do things the same, the more uncomfortable it's getting. Does that resonate with anyone? The less relevant it feels. You see, God is wanting us to make a courageous space for his Holy Spirit and to hold the space. Ephesians 4 12, for the word of God is living and active, it's sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing even to the dividing of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow. It is quick to discern the thoughts and the intents of the heart. See, God can see everything going on in here. But the key is, are we willing to work with him? Are we willing to admit it in front of him and say, Lord, come and change my heart? How are we going to find the new paths of the future? To find them, we're going to have to actually make a radical change. We're going to have to take a step. And one of the vision kind of focuses for this synergy vision that God spoke to us as streams and to Kieran movement about was about the critical restoration of understanding and value for the fivefold gifting. That for decades and probably centuries, if we're honest, it is now widely acknowledged that the church has been teacher-pastor led. Now we adore our pastors and teachers because out of the five, there are no one more valuable than the other. We need all five. But here's the deal: right across the globe, we are standing at a time when the other two gifts, sorry, there's three more gifts, but particularly the apostolic and the prophetic are either misunderstood, marginalized, or badly represented. Pick a nation and you're going to find a different dynamic. Now, the tricky thing here is that these two gifts we're going to discover are absolutely critical to move the church forward. One of the reasons that the church has felt stagnated, stuck, it's struggling to move in different areas of church culture is that these gifts are not being used properly or not being used at all, if we're honest. I would say, ministering in different nations, that this is a problem that's so different in different nations. In some nations, the apostolic and the prophetic are used like a badge of honor, like a title to elevate and grandiose ministries, and God is dealing with that. Because actually, the Bible says they're foundational, not elevational, foundational. I would say in Scotland, we don't understand them. Our problem is we don't understand them. And what I've absorbed, what I've seen as teaching and leading in prophetic ministry in Scotland for a long time is that because there was a pushing back against them, there was a marginalizing of them, it left a gap, it left a void. And things came in to fill that void that didn't always represent the prophetic in a healthy way. And people didn't recognize healthy from unhealthy because they weren't allowing the prophetic, and I could say also the apostolic to be a commonplace teaching and equipping in the main body of Christ. You see, when you marginalize something, when you specialize something, you get people gravitate towards that and they'll specialize in it. But there's nothing in the Bible that talks about having evangelism, the apostolic and the prophetic on the edges of church. And what we have arrived at is an era where the Lord is blowing through his church in these gifts and cleaning them up. And it's quite scary in certain countries, especially when they've been used to elevate. But he is dealing with things in this nation as well. And you know, he's looking for us to respond, guys, personally, corporately. He can see it all in our hearts anyway, and in his grace and his love, part of the transitional process is to recognize where we've gone off beam and to dig into the word of God and say, Lord, course, correct us. Refine these gifts. Ephesians 2, 19, 21 says, We are God's people. We're his household that is to be built on the foundations of the apostles and the prophets, with Christ Jesus as the chief cornerstone. It says that in him, right, when we build it this way, in him the whole house rises together. We are that house. We rise together to become a holy temple, or that word is equally a tabernacle of the Lord Jesus. What is described here is the correct way to build the house of the Lord. Now, anybody who has designed, who has built, if you're a builder, an architect, an engineer, if you've ever done a house build, is there a correct way to build a house for longevity? So that it doesn't start sliding down the hill or you know, having great big cracks in the walls, or eventually the roof falls in. There is a correct way to build a house that it works well, that it keeps out the elements, that it protects us, that it works ergonomically, and that it lasts a long time. And what the Lord is saying here is this is the way to build my house. The foundation is to be the apostolic and the prophetic, the foundation. Then everything else is built upon that. And as we look at how the apostles described themselves in Acts, they were not elevating themselves. They were not lifting up their ministries and building for themselves great big names and as many likes on Facebook as they possibly can. There's nothing wrong with Facebook if God has asked us to use that as a tool. The tools themselves, guys, are not evil. It's how we use them. But they described themselves as beaten, shipwrecked, the lowest of the low. Literally the foundations that the rest of God's people could walk on to find a solidity, to build the healthy house of God, to rise, to become that holy temple, that holy tabernacle of the Lord Jesus. The apostles and prophets are wired with a particular DNA that's different to teachers and shepherds. And deep within that DNA is the pioneering DNA. Apostles and prophets are wired to always have one eye on the future. We can't help it. Those two giftings, when I've done the five foot, the five-fold test, they're the two that come up almost equal with me at the talk. And right enough, I like the now, but actually it annoys me. And I've always got like six eyes on the future and itchy feet. Alan O'Talia, that's why I'm always jumping about the globe. I'm like, we've got itchy feet. It's gone boring again, you know. And then I'll come back, but there's something in my spirit that knows the present is precious, but God always has things in mind for his people for the future because there's always more people. I could say the same of the evangelistic gift. There's always people out there that don't know the Lord and they have six eyes on what's going on out there. And then we need the pastors and teachers just as much to equip, to train, to look after the sheep and the sheep that are yet to come into the household, the temple of the Lord. But without the apostolic, I'm not going to call them the apostles and the prophets, because I think we in the church have made them titles. I think a more helpful way to explain this is the gift of the apostolic and the gift of the prophetic. Because lots of God's people have that in different ways, in different measures, and for different purposes. They are a service role, a foundation role, but they are also the two gifts that are designed to stop the church stagnating. So one of the biggest things that's being recognized right now is we have to move and change and shift. And there's so many leadership discussions up and down the country about how we do that, which is great, by the way. I've never seen so much unity and so much openness for leaders and ministries to explore and churches to explore. It's a beautiful thing God is doing. But we are never going to find God's plan for the future until we get that five-fold gifting back in our healthy understanding and in healthy activation. Another thing the Lord is doing right now is He is sending His fire through the church. Has anyone noticed? There is a great refining. There is a tremendous global cleansing in God's church, and it's not a quick one. It's uncomfortable, but it's necessary. And it is to purify his church of all the things that we do not need, that we should not be touching, and that we cannot take forward to build that healthy temple, that future church. On the day of Pentecost, we know we're coming out for on 8th of June, the day of Pentecost celebration. We know that Jesus' huge sacrifice on the cross allowed the Holy Spirit to be given to us as humanity. The fire of God filled each one of the apostles and every child of God to come after that. In Acts 2, 1 to 4, there is that record. And this allows us now to have that ongoing relationship with God for the spirit, the fire to dwell within our very being. And we are called a temple individually as well as collectively, which is a beautiful thing. We are to be holy as He is holy, 1 Peter 1, 15 to 16. Now, amazingly, the Holy Spirit is not just one attribute. The Holy Spirit, the Bible says, is made up of the seven spirits of God. And I love this. This is fascinating. It's such a huge topic. But Isaiah 11, 2 outlines the seven spirits of God. And what God does with his fire as he burns away is he gives us the offering of a great exchange. Let's look at what fire does to remove, first of all. Then let's look at what the fire of the Holy Spirit is offering you and I in exchange. The first attribute of fire is that it illuminates. Light reveals our hidden sin. It reveals our unresolved pain. It reveals things like unforgiveness and all the things that we do not want to show God or even admit to ourselves. And I don't know about you, but the last five years, God has gone deep, deep into the places I never wanted him to go. I didn't even realize I wasn't letting him go there. Do you know what I mean? But what I've discovered is he went deep into painful areas of family history, of relationships, of things I wasn't omitting to myself. As I let him go deeper and deeper, like a surgeon's knife, I can tell you guys, it has not been pleasant. And the funny thing is, my response wasn't always particularly shiny or spiritual or well behaved, was it, Alan? But here's what I've discovered. So your nearest and dearest sees it all. But here's what I discovered. I found a God that just kept saying, no, don't hide that from me. Let's be honest. And the more raw and the more real I have been with God, the more I have discovered a God that is closer than your skin. He is the ultimate father. He is not embarrassed by your sin. He's not disgusted by our mistakes. I know we've all heard that preach. I'd heard that preach a hundred times, but I didn't realize I had never really let God go to those places that I thought, no, Christians are well behaved and Christian leaders, we've got to be even more well-behaved and sinless and perfect. What a load of rubbish. We're all human beings. And the more honest we are with God, with ourselves before God, the more we are cleansed by his fire. The more the church becomes a healthier place, not a Christian veneer of how are you? I'm fine, how are you? I'm fine. We're all fine. We're always fine until we're not. You know, as we allow that deep fire of God, personally, corporately, we're going to get rid of everything He does not want us to take forward. We don't have to be afraid. Psalm 119, 105. Your word is a lamp for my feet and a light for my path, or I could say, my journey, your journey. Fire refines, it removes impurities, doesn't it? When things are put in a fire, it refines, it cleanses. That the genuineness of your faith being much more precious than gold to God, our faith is precious to God. Though it is tested by fire, may it be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ. The more we get rid of the junk we don't need, the more we see who he really is, who Jesus really is. He wants to burn away the things that block how God wants us to see him. What other attributes does fire have? Fire consumes, isn't it? Fire, I do love a good fire pit. Anybody else love it? We do love a good fire pit party, me and Alan. I love to burn things in the fire, and it can turn a huge pile of wood into a pile of ashes. Fire consumes. God's fire burns away what we don't need. It not just, you know, not just our pain and our sin, there's all of that, but he also needs to burn away from church culture everything that needs left in the past, even if it was good at the time. It's really up to him what we take forward and what we don't. Fire tests, we know this, it's used to test the purity of metals, for example. Job 23, 10. But he knows the way that I take. When he has tested me, I will come forth as gold. And that testing, let's face it, nobody likes being tested by God. It sucks. It's awful. But the but the process is to refine us as gold. So it's worth it. There's the prize. When we think on days, I am so sick of things being uncomfortable. The eternal prize is before us, guys, not the earth life. This is not the prize. This is just part of the journey of refining. Fire transforms the very nature of what it touches. If you burn a house in a fire, what happens to the shape of the house? The whole shape changes, doesn't it? Everything changes. It turns from a structure that stands up again into something that's just a pile of ashes, just ashes in your hand that no one could live in. Romans 12, 2. Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is the good, what's the acceptable will of God? What is his will? What is his kingdom upon the earth? That's his goal for us. God desires relationship with us. He wants to walk us through the process of the fire with love. He's not a cruel God. Like I testified honestly with you. Well, I have let God go in deeper. I was like, okay, we'll do this for six months. Four years later. I'm like, seriously, I didn't know it was that bad. Clearly, I am. But I have found that as God goes in deeper and my response is raw and real, we can. I love that scripture that says, pour out your hearts before Him, you people. God is a refuge for us. He's not afraid of our pain. He's not afraid of our honesty. He's not afraid of our bad moods and our bad hair days and our bad attitudes. He loves us into this transforming power of the Holy Spirit in our lives. When all has been burned away or is being burned away, we can stand in the light of the Holy Spirit. And the Holy Spirit was represented in the tabernacle pattern, as many of you know, as the menorah or the golden lampstand. And the golden lampstand has seven, seven branches. And the priests were to keep the branches constantly filled with oil and alight with fire. It was never to go out. It was to represent that the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of the Lord, is always with us, that He is always present, that He is always at work, even when it feels like He has gone on holiday. He has not. We go on holiday, thankfully. But even there, God says, you know, even when you go on holiday, even when you go into the depths of the depths, your lowest times, I will be there. I will be there. And what he says, if you will allow the fire of the Lord at this time in the church to make way for the space of the Spirit, if we will hold the space open with courage. I'm praying for several ministries I work with right now. And funnily enough, they're all in this unnerving point of big decisions. And what's come to me is I'm feeling a bit like that with where we take Stream Scotland and even Stream's Creative House. I feel like the Lord is saying, something new is coming. Don't fill the calendar with everything you did before. I've just begun to feel that some of you prophetic lovelies are thinking, I've been feeling that. And speaking to other leaders who are like biting their nails and going, Will you pray? I said, actually, I think there's something coming. And the Lord wants us to make a space. And that's going to take courage because we have to wait in the space. We have to wait on the Lord with perseverance. But in the space, here's what we're going to find. In the fire and light of the menorah flames, we find the great exchange. We allow the fire of God to take away. But this is what he offers us. He offers us the spirit of the Lord. Now that is about the sovereignty, the authority, the very presence of God, his sovereignty over everything that's going on, everything on the earth, everything in the universe. He's got this. We are offered the spirit of the fear of the Lord, which is the word for reverence or awe, the awe of God. We are offered the spirit of wisdom. Boy, do we need the wisdom of God. It is the divine insight. It is guidance to apply the knowledge we have in a way that has eternal application. Some of the smartest, most educated people in this planet make some of the stupidest decisions. Have you ever noticed that? Decisions that cost lives, that create damage and havoc. Some of the most highly educated people with the most letters after their name, if they don't know the Lord, it really is like ashes. Worse than ashes, it creates damage. But God can take the smallest amount of knowledge and education with the right heart. Because then you really know you can't do it without God. And his eternal kingdom starts to alight upon the earth in new ways. And that's what he's looking for to find the church of the future. He offers us the spirit of understanding, the ability to discern what is false and what is true, even within the church. Even within his church, what is false and what is real truth. It helps us to discern what's in the hearts of other people, the Bible says. Or sometimes just the energy to get through the day, quite frankly. We need his counsel, but he offers it to us. I heard recently somebody was preaching and they said, you know, some people think that God doesn't speak much. He said, I actually, if you learn to really hear the voice of God, he's an absolute chatterbox. And it's so true. He loves to speak with his people. He offers us the spirit of might. That's power. And I don't mean the wrong kind, I mean strength. Power, strength, physical strength, mental strength, spiritual strength to run the calling that he has offered you and I. And each one of us has such a different calling. And he also offers us the spirit of knowledge. The spirit of knowledge is the awareness of God, his character, his will, his presence in his beautiful creation to be so aware. Have you ever been with people and they never even, you know, it's a it's an evening like this, and they're just like, yeah, whatever. They never see, perceive what God is doing that's good. The spirit of knowledge. We need these. We need to dig into this at this time in the church. We need to pray to God. We need the seven spirits of God illuminated in greater measure in every one of our lives, and definitely in the global church. We need to see what you're doing. We need to see what we must leave behind. We must we need to see and understand what must be course corrected. Where we've gone off beam and somebody's told us, follow this, follow this ministry, follow this speaker. But there, God is dealing with that stuff on such a public level right now. It's not for us to judge because we are all going to be refined by the fire of God. It is for us to cry out, to pray, Lord, help us discern what is truth, what is not, what it's gone off beam. Not to judge other people in a wrong way, but to be prayerful. Lastly, because I feel God really wants us to go after this in creative worship tonight, or just we're gonna open that space for the spirit. We're gonna pray. We're gonna, I want to make a space for you to be able to bring forward what God might be saying to you as the musicians weave in and out whatever sound heaven wants to bring tonight. Because I believe, I really believe, as I sat with God in this teaching, that He wants to restore something to us. I believe God wants to restore something to his church that many of us desperately need restored to us. The spirit of the fear of the Lord, the definition of the fear there of the Lord, I said is to be in awe, to be in reverence. That do you know what also means wonder to wonder, to wonder at his majesty and his holiness, to wonder what will God do next? The definition of wonder in the dictionary is a feeling of amazement or admiration caused by something beautiful or remarkable or unfamiliar. And you guys all know the word wonder actually also means to feel curious about something. The role of wonder wonder, I just felt the Lord say the role of my wonder is to lead to a quest for my wisdom. And so many times in the last four or five more difficult years in the church culture where it feels like it's harder at times to feel that wave of the presence of God. Like sometimes it would just roll in the room and knock us all over. There's been a pulling out of the wave, and many people have it have experienced that because I so believe God wants us to recognize that space and cry out for Him to move in a new way. Wonder is part of that, holding that space. And I feel, I don't know about you, but I thought I so need a fresh injection of the wonder of God. It's really hit me, and so many times these last few years, God gave me this phrase, I hear it so clearly never lose the wonder. And it's like, well, help me, Lord. Because it feels it's a drier season for sure, and it's a hard season, not just for me personally, I mean for all of us, you know, and that hurts all of the body, but we have to hold our nerve, guys. And I feel tonight the Lord wants to give us our wonder back. Wonder leads and unlocks, it leads to and unlocks wisdom. Proverbs 1511, the fear of the Lord, the all the wonder is the beginning of wisdom. Proverbs 8:11, because wisdom is more precious than rubies and all the things that you or I could desire, all the things, a great life, an easy road, loads of money, whatever it is that we desire on this earth. It says nothing can compare to the very wisdom of God. Wisdom leads to wonder, wonder leads to wisdom. Proverbs 4-7. Wisdom is the principal thing. So get wisdom. I love that. The word of God, just get wisdom, it will make sense of everything, and wisdom will restore to us the wonder. Who feels that they would they would like a sense of wonder restored to them? Anyone else feel like God, I need your wonder again, I need your awe again. Let that wonder lead to wisdom. Hebrews 12, 28 to 29 says, Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us have grace by which we may serve God acceptably, with reverence and with godly fear. For our God is a consuming fire.
Speaker 02Hello and
Group Chat
Speaker 02welcome to the Synergy Sessions. I'm Ruth Kennedy, and on this podcast, we are delving into the path to the church of the future with two outstanding faithful ones, Heather Sutherland and Scott McRoberts. Hello to you both.
Speaker 00Hello, Ruth. Great to be back on the Synergy Podcast.
Speaker 03Hi, Ruth. Good to meet you.
Speaker 02Yeah, and you too, Heather. We were just saying as we were about to hit record there, we've not actually met before, Heather and I. So we had uh a quick round trip about who we might know and where we might have been and we landed on. We both know Jesus, so that's great. Yep. It's always a good starting point. It is indeed, it is, isn't it? So, Heather, you're involved with Stream Scotland, aren't you? Can you tell us a little bit about that?
Speaker 03Yeah, so I help charity um Bowman Webb, and we head up Stream Scotland. Um, my role is director of training, which means I help to train our trainee teachers, but I also help to set up um some of the courses and things that we do and roll them out across Scotland.
Speaker 02Okay, wow. And is there anything else in there as well? You did you mention about the Dreams House? Yum, just give us a little bit more about that.
Speaker 03All right, um yeah, so I also run the Dream House, which is a ministry online where people can send their dreams, and I have a team of people who will interpret the dreams for them in the same way that Joseph and Daniel did um in the Old Testament. So it's looking uh very much on what God is saying in these dreams and helping to the dreamer to understand the message that God may want to communicate in there.
Speaker 02So we get dreams from all over the world. Wow, and that that's really kind of pulling on that prophetic gifting and yeah. Yeah, that's amazing. What a gift to the body. Thank you with that. That really is uh quite something. And um, Scott, you're a fellow minister and you also serve with Cairn, don't you? You want to share some of the things that you get up to with God?
Speaker 00Sure, yes. That he's getting up to with me. Yes, I am indeed a church school minister in inverness uh with St. Columba Church, and I also do some part-time work with Cairn. So I'm the learning community lead for Cairn. So we're helping uh existing churches with renewing a culture of discipleship and mission. So just trying to reset our day DNA for following Jesus the way that he taught us to from from the very beginning.
Speaker 02Wow, so we are on reset of DNA. What an apt one that you are here then for this particular podcast. That's great. Thinking about the past to the uh to the church of the future. And uh here you are. Uh, we have all sorts of wonderful gifts that we're going to be hearing from. So I am really excited, listeners. I think we have got, we're gonna glean some great riches. We really are from from everybody here and from charities teaching as well. So if you're wondering who I am, I currently serve God in the Church of Scotland as their digital ministries advisor. I was ordained as a pioneer minister with the under-40s uh a couple of years back. And I was I did that for a little stint, uh, set up some new things, um, as you uh might expect from me in terms of fivefold ministry giftings. Kind of my um major lens uh is apostolic and prophetic. They are first and foremost in me, and in fact, almost they're a little bit co-joined, elbow to elbow. I the evangelist evangelistic, it kind of dances quite closely in and around. But those fivefold ministry gifts that we're talking about are in Ephesians, and it's the apostolic, the prophetic, the evangelistic, the shepherd, and the teacher. And especially on these synergy sessions, we're looking at the release of these giftings, exploring these giftings into the church, and what a richness that they really bring to the body of Christ, because they're given by Jesus. So that's what lens you can expect me to approach our conversation from today. Um, Scott, what what about you? How would you land and describe your fivefold ministry giftings?
Speaker 00Uh well, uh when I've done this before, it's it changes over time sometimes as as God kind of does new things in our lives. But for me, uh particularly dominant would be apostolic as well. I suspect we're gonna get a bit of a theme here amongst us. Uh, and then sort of prophetic, evangelistic, and teaching would all sit pretty, pretty equal just underneath that. Uh, pastoral, not my hottest area, pretty, pretty uh sub-basement on that. But happily there are others around us who are brilliant at that. So the apostolic's the main one for me.
Speaker 02Brilliant. Okay, Heather, what about you?
Speaker 03Um the last time I did a five-fold test, I came out as being pastoral. And I was like, no, that's not me. Um, but if you've listened to the the podcast that I did the teaching on a couple ones before, the people who were commenting on that all said I was pastoral. So, you know, there is that old um, I think it's a Middle Eastern saying, you know, if one person calls you a donkey, ignore them. If five people call you a donkey, buy a saddle. So maybe I do need to think, hmm, maybe there is some pastel stuff in there. Um, but my main things would tend to be around the sort of teaching and prophetic. And that's where I would see myself sitting a bit more naturally. Um, but yeah, that that pastel stuff is kicking about there somewhere.
Speaker 02Um, and we need the shepherds, you know, definitely. We need that pastoral heart and things, and uh, we definitely want to value all of the giftings. And I I love that already we're saying, you know, we know that there's an ebb and flow with this, that nobody is kind of stuck in a wee box, as it were. This is what the Holy Spirit is doing in us, and really our job is to stay uh submitted and yielded to God's working in us because ultimately God knows what's going on better than we do, and uh and how uh we can be of best service uh and bring what we've got to bring. So I I just love it that we get to yield to the Holy Spirit and uh get to learn and see him mold us and form us and shape us. I think it's a an exciting thing being a jerk a Christian, isn't it?
Speaker 00Yes, that's not a rhetorical question, is it, Ruth? Yes, it is.
Speaker 03Yeah, I mean, I I live on Holy Island, so it was great. You know, last night we had um a prayer time. Um, so we have prayers at nine o'clock every evening, and we had about 16 people in the room last night from all over the place, and then a group of them went off to the pub to continue um conversations, and yeah, so it's it's great fun just talking about where God is leading us and where God, you know, listening to what other people are saying about where God's leading them. So yeah, it's great fun.
Speaker 02Oh, I love it. And listen to that link that we got there into charity's teaching. Heather, that was seamless. Hey, Andy would think it was planned. Ah, not scripted, my friends who are listening. Unscripted. So, yeah, let's talk about charity's teaching then. Because when I was listening to it, um, I was really reminded of uh scripture from Matthew, right? So it's in Matthew 13, 52. Love this verse, and it says, Every teacher of religious law who becomes a disciple in the kingdom of heaven is like a homeowner who brings from their storeroom new gems of truth as well as old. And I just thought, yes, that is really what we have got from charity in this teaching and the path to the church of the future and everything that was involved with everything that she was bringing there. I felt there was lots of the old pulling out from the prophecies of old, and then some of the new illuminations as well within that. It was so rich with it. Um, and so it I was left with quite a lot of questions. And I'm wondering about the questions that maybe charity's teachings has has thrown up from you for all our listeners. You know, what would you discuss with us and what would you discuss with her? And again, in her teaching, there are questions that charity asks of us. And I reckon there are questions the Holy Spirit asks us, you know, those ones straight into our hearts, the hard ones. I think she was mentioning that as well. And I guess we can expect that of the person with a prophetic anointing. We can expect them to agitate the status quo in our thinking and our believing and the actions we see in society, you know, and putting that call out as well, and also to the church is you know, how how are we living as the body of Christ? So we get agitated and prompted to move and to grow and to transform so that we're seeing more of the kingdom of God on earth. And that's one of the blessings that the prophetic gifting brings. You know, we mentioned about the fivefold ministry, and these are gifts that Jesus has given to the church. And yes, they're all different, but they all work to the same goal. Um that you know, they were all working together to enable and strengthen the actions of our faith. We're looking to bring maturity in faith. We were talking about that in a previous podcast as well, about maturing in pro in the prophetic, but and all about trust in Jesus for everybody, you know, that really seeing all nations discipled. That's all about glorifying Jesus and the Father, isn't it? It's all about that. So when we're thinking about these the five folds, the apostolic and the prophetic, they typically look at what is to come. And you know, we're looking at the return of Jesus, we're looking at the big picture, but we're also looking at where that immediate next step is and all the way along that continuum. And the apostolic and the prophetic often hold a vision from a perspective that's akin to being on the top of a mountain. If you could see the backgrounds on our screens and um and not just hear our voices, I've got a background of a mountain. I popped up uh a wee hill um the other week because I just love getting up the top of the mountains, but it gives you a different perspective, doesn't it? I mean, you can see everything all the way around, things coming from a long way off, but you also get to know every scramble, every pointy rock, other heather clump on that climb as well. Um, and that for me was summed up when charity said the present is precious and the future needs to be viewed. And that's why we're thinking about the apostolic and the prophetic today, why we are thinking specifically about them as we're discussing the path to the church of the future, because those are the types of gifts we want to really pull on um as we are discerning the path um to the church of the future. Because I believe church does have a future. It's God designed, it's God created, it is God's, it belongs to him, and he only creates things that are good, doesn't he? So Heather and Scott charity talks of God leaving his church no choice. This was interesting. God leaving his church, no choice, but to explore what the future might look like and the necessity of restoring the foundations of the apostolic and the prophetic. So I would love to hear from you. Um, Scott, if you want to kick off first, how do you see that or how do you know and understand that kind of restoration in your local context or nationally, or even how can we as a church recognize the signs of this restoration?
Speaker 00Okay, gosh. There's plenty in there, isn't there? I I I guess um at a local level, it was uh a privilege. Ruth was along at our church on Sunday. It was a privilege to see a couple of uh our teenagers getting baptized on Sunday, which is not a sentence that I've said for most years of of my ministry of our time here in St. Columba. There is something about what God is doing amongst um an emerging generation. We know this from things around the quiet revival and other podcasts I've I've heard Ruth on uh around that. Um that locally I can say there is something about the new, the church of the future, that is about recognizing the emerging leaders, the emerging people. That that we all know that the children are not the church of the future, they're the church of the present. But actually, they are the leaders of the future, they are emerging into a a leadership that I believe God is going to um to work through powerfully, actually. I think that it's incumbent on us then to be equipping them well. So uh answering your question about the local, that's that's how I see it. I see something of it looks quite suddenly different to how it did even a few years ago. Uh in what has been, I would, I would dare to say, uh what's felt like a healthy, kind of lively church. There's quite a lot of sudden shift and of God going, now we're gonna do it in a different way with these different people, which has been interesting. Nationally, um, again, Ruth will know as we're colleagues in that context, it has just definitely felt like there's a press, isn't there? There's a there's there's a press within the Church of Scotland, certainly, around we actually have to do things in new ways. We really do have no choice, practically, financially, all of that. And and so the that kind of pressure point of we have to change because we actually don't have an option, is as charity said that that's entirely aligning with our real experience nationally in the church, and I dare say, not just the Church of Scotland. It's a little bit like when it's it's not the same, but you know, when when the believers were persecuted in Jerusalem and forced to scatter, so only in those moments of of forced change that we discover uh uh new paths, that we discover a new way forward. The old way will always be the way we do it until we are absolutely forced into the need. And then it falls to, well, how are we finding those new ways? And there's charity's message about we we need then to turn to the apostolic gift, the prophetic gift, uh and enable that, listen to that to to go from here.
Speaker 02Wow, so we're really seeing about things that are to come in terms of the young leaders coming through, and then also that squeeze that yeah, you you must take action. Uh yeah, what what about you, Heather? What what would you say to finds and restoration?
Speaker 03Yeah, well, I'm kind of in a a different situation from you guys at the minute because I'm I'm finding myself for the first time really in decades not really being plugged into a local church um just because of the way things are at the minute. But uh what I am seeing is that here on Holy Island we get a lot of leaders coming through from lots of different contexts, and they're all saying things that are very similar. That uh you know, for a long time they have been um making church members, and actually what uh Jesus' commandment is to go and make disciples. Um so we're seeing people, you know, who are maybe saying, Well, we're we're got the evangelistic bit, we're good at bringing people in, but we're not so good maybe at um training them to be disciples. Um so to give an example of that, I was at a sort of meeting stoke conference last week, and one of the questions that was asked um by one of the groups was, So how did you learn to pray? And the leaders who were there kind of went, Well, nobody really taught us how to pray. And they were also then thinking, Well, we've never really taught our people in our congregations how to pray. It's an almost like an assumption that's made that people know how to do this. Um, and I think that's where a lot of leaders are coming now and realizing that church needs to be different. Um, and even, you know, my husband Ian and I, we went to um a church just down the coast. It was a church we'd never been to before, we didn't know the the minister or anything. And it was his first Sunday back after being off on um uh I think it was a sabbatical he'd been on. And he said what God had shown him during those few months he'd been off was that they needed to uh to do church differently. They needed to get back to being an act to church. So as much as I find that charity was saying we need the church of the future, I suppose in some ways what I'm hearing from the leaders that are kind of passing through here is the church of the future needs to look more like the church of the past, but not necessarily the the denominational past. So for Church of Scotland would be sort of 1500s, it's coming back to what did church look like in the first century? Um, what did the disciples do there? How did that operate? You know, they spent a lot more time uh meeting together and and things like that and sharing meals and and stuff. So that's kind of what I'm hearing coming through from lots of different places.
Speaker 02Yeah, that's really uh such a kind of um picture that you can really grasp, you can really get hold of that picture about the ancient church and just that they're gathering, their meetings together, you know, and the discipleship rather than the membership. You know, I that really that really strikes me. And um I think one of the signs for me about churches that are restoring, whether it's the apostolic and the prophetic, or whether it's returning to ancient paths, ancient ways that we talk about in Jeremiah, I love that verse as well. Um, what I'm noticing is about that uh churches that are thriving and flourishing seem to have systems that support the vision, not hamper it. So it's as though you've got the growth and you've got the life, and then this this the decisions and the processes and procedures kind of work in and around it to hold, to hold that that life up. And and I think that's probably quite freeing if you think then back to Acts 2. I I'm not sure how many uh they were fighting off, I think, systems. I think that was one of the things Jesus was rebelling against, wasn't it? Saying, throw off the man-made systems, take on the God Kingdom systems and um, but yes, but charity doesn't just only mention about the apostolic and the prophetic foundations. She also talked about the fire of God, didn't she? We had that seven spirit of God from Isaiah, um, and a greater revelation of wonder. So she took on a bit of a different tangent with that one, and so that really captured my imagination. And I'm just wondering, you know, do you know places that are moving in these areas already, you know, that have that kind of are on board with that fire of God and the spirit of wisdom, a greater revelation of wonder. And and just thinking about those places, I'm just thinking, well, if they are already there, if they're engaged with it, what is their path to the future looking like? I'm wondering if is that a lesson that we can learn and what what did you think about that section that charity was talking about?
Speaker 00Yeah, lots that's uh very illuminating about that, you know, um charity taking us to the sevenfold spirit and Isaiah 11 and just showing up all the ways that the spirits at work. And um again, I'm I as you're asking that, Ruth, I'm I'm drawn to seeing that the emerging generation are uh spirit-led in these ways in a different way. That that would be my observation, at least of who I'm seeing about. And what I mean by that, I think is the there are young people who are willing to ask God to show things up in their lives, to say it out loud, to be vulnerable, to invite refining, to invite correction. A lot of things about um the young people that that we're seeing around us, and I'm not just talking about our church, Ruth. You'll have seen it with me at magnitude as well. It's just that that willingness to learn, that willingness to invite God in, to bring change to them, and actually through them as well. So I don't know, I'm I'm drawn just to looking at these these emerging young leaders again and and thinking they're doing it, they're they're living that spirit-led life in a way that we can learn from.
Speaker 02Yeah, definitely. I definitely saw that in magnitude and the scents. When I was at the Send, um, that was about 4,000 young folks earlier on in the year at Glasgow and Brayhead Arena. Um, and I mean I grew up uh in the church going to uh Tony Campolo or Spring Harvest or the Usher Hall in Edinburgh, and when you know, mum and dad took me to lots of uh these different places in addition to local church. I had such a blessed childhood and upbringing, and we there was lots of responses made at that time, and Billy Graham, you know, when they were over at Murrayfield and such like lots and lots of responses. And where now, when I was there at the send as well, there's what I was really struck with was not just the authenticity, but a humility. And it's not that my generation, when we were teenagers there, weren't humble. Of course, we were. That's it's not comparing that way. It just happens to be that I noticed at the send at magnitude, there's this gritty authenticity, a vulnerability in the young folk that are coming through that I find inspirational. I I find it's it's teaching me as you're watching them, kind of going, you are responding in ways to what God is doing that is so raw and honest that it's making such a big impact. And He Heather, you want to come in on this too?
Speaker 03Um, yeah, because I was at the um the mission school that was a follow up to this end. Um and what struck me about that was on the the first evening there was a group there they they could only come for the first night and the way that they worshipped you know they were a lot of them were young teenage maybe early twenties men not they weren't they definitely weren't boys and and they were worshiping in spirit and in truth in a way that just encapsulated that kind of phrase for me. Um as you said, they were you know it was very authentic, but the thing that struck me was that it was a group of young men that were doing it, you know. So often we're told that there's not young men in the in the church. Um I'm I'm happy to say that my son who's in his early twenties is is still very firmly rooted in a local church and things, but that seems to be from what I'm reading and seeing that a majority of who are coming through in this silent revival or this quiet revival. It's an amazing amount of young men. And I think that's really encouraging because I think that'll in my mind that'll bring back some kind of balance um within church congregations, um, which rightly or wrongly have been quite female dominated over the last um few decades. But that that's just the way things have been, but I think that's part of the shift that's coming.
Speaker 02Yeah, I mean that when you talk about the quiet revival report there, that's what they talk about, is that the biggest demographic of so the quiet revival report uh produced by the Bible Society, one of their findings was that church uh attendance has increased by 50% over the last six years, which is incredible. And of that uh increase, the majority has been uh the Gen Z, so the the young adults, and of those, it has been the majority of young men. So it's just as you're saying, Heather, and you know, I can remember years upon years of interceding for who was missing in our church, and the one of those groups is the young men. And um, I just I get thrilled that we're seeing these answered to prayer, and I'm I'm getting excited about other answers to prayer that we're going to see because doesn't that the way so much of this happens as well when we're thinking about church of the future? You know, God absolutely fulfills his word and he answers prayers and it causes that encouragement for us, doesn't it? To yep, yep, keep going, um keep moving in and keep believing. Um, one of the points that charity also talked about was an unplanned space, um, you know, and and actually having it blank, not having the stuff in the diary. Um, and I was I was reflecting on that and I thought, oh, what happens when I do that myself? And I thought, so I so I did a blank tough, and I actually I had that blank space just just for God, uh, not just in my daily rhythm. I don't mean it that way, I actually mean it. This was in it something additional and set aside with it. And there was so clearly a call um to the to the verse that that reminds us that what is impossible with humankind is possible with God. And I really want to share that in our point in the conversation just now. One, um, because I think it's relative, it's it's relevant for what we're saying about the the young folks and answer to prayer in terms of what we're praying for for the future of the church and what we're hoping is going to be restored and the glories that are coming with it, but also for our listeners as well. I just around this about the hope of the future of the church. I think sometimes we can get a bit heads down. What is the hope of the church? What is it, what is the future that's coming here for the bride of Christ? And it's just to remind us you know what? What is impossible with humans is possible with God. Um, might seem counterintuitive, but again, that was Jesus's way, isn't it? It's just he's that, he is that awesome. Uh so Scott, what what about you when you create space, an unplanned space? Do you have unplanned spaces in your services? You know, what what what what happens for you?
Speaker 00It's a good question. I actually thought I will put a brief one in this Sunday. I was at yet another busy meeting yesterday, and was just chatting to a colleague and saying, Do you know what I need to get back to putting some you know quiet days in my diary? So uh being my habit, whenever I've got a student, I tell them, put a quiet day in the diary once a month. And it reminds me that I need to start doing that again as well. So uh so this colleague said, Do it, get get on the uh on the train, do it, do it on the train. So I've done that, got my quiet days, and I know that when I take those days that once a month, um, and I'm just obedient to do that, that those are the places where God um realigns, you know, uh what I'm doing with with his purposes. It's it's the rudder setting, it's the that can go, this can stay, focus on that. And unless I do that, I'm not heading in the right direction for the future personally. So it does it does um beg the question, how can we do that more as a church? So in our our current session meetings, our elders' meetings, we'll create kind of just 10 minutes of space for for open prayer, and we're seeking the spirit's lead within that, you know, redirect our thinking. And 10 minutes, you might go, that's nothing, that's not very much, but there's at least an intentionality within that. And even plug for learning communities, this is where we do want to offer churches just that very thing, that space to sit down as as leaders in the church together and go, what are you saying, God? Where are you taking us? And we do that in a kind of six-monthly rhythm. And without fail, as people participate in that, they find that God gives them the path ahead, the the the way ahead that perhaps they had just been ramming on apart from. So, yeah, it's it's a rudder set, is what you get with it. And it's a it's a heading into the right direction in the future when we make that unplanned space. And this Sunday, we'll make a little bit of unplanned space for everyone in our all-age service to see what God leads them into this term.
Speaker 02That sounds awesome. An unplanned space, great. Um, Heather, what's your thoughts and respect on unplanned spaces?
Speaker 03Um it's quite interesting because you know, being on on Holy Island, we have got this regular um time of prayer where we meet. But sometimes when I'm leading, I will go and I'll just there'll be things in the order because it in some ways it seems quite Anglican, and I'm learning that I'm not an Anglican. Um and I'm not an Episcopalian either. I'm struggling with bits of that, but within that order, I will go, okay, God, it says here silence. You know, is there something that you want the people who are in this room to particularly pray about or think about in this time? So yesterday's one I happened to be leading, and it was on Holy Spirit. And I just said, you know, that that there are lots of names for Holy Spirit within scripture, different um facets of Holy Spirit's character. So he can be comforter, he can be encourager, and and so on. And I just said, I'm gonna leave some space for you to ask, who do you need Holy Spirit to be to you today? And then just left you know, two or three minutes and and that was quite powerful and for people just to think about that. Um, and I suppose my for not being in church leadership, you know, I did 20 years as a Church of Scotland minister's wife, but um for church leaders, I I think my challenge is would you be willing to give up control of your order of service if God says in that quiet space um Scott that you're gonna leave on Sunday, if God happened to say, um, yeah, that's fine, but I want to spend half an hour of you praying for somebody that's sick, and that's gonna throw your timings out.
Speaker 00So long as he lets me know by the Friday beforehand, that'll be that'll be fine.
Speaker 03Ah, but you know, that that's the thing, and I think that's what comes with this unplanned space. Um, because as we were talking earlier about, you know, people wanting to get back to Acts 2, um, it says at the at the end of that chapter when the believers meet together, says they had a deep sense of awe came over them all, and the apostles performed miraculous signs and wonders when they came together. You know, but if you leave unplanned spaces, are you prepared for the fallout that that's gonna bring? Because it's gonna break open. You you know, some people have very rigid orders of service and they cannot deviate from that. But if Holy Spirit breaks in and you're leaving those spaces, are you prepared for what that's gonna do? Because it's gonna cause all sorts of issues potentially um with members of your congregation. Yeah, that looks like I'm just leaving that out there. I found the 39 aid and now I'm backing off.
Speaker 02That's that's us, that's our rap now for today. I'm joking. Scott, Scott, you want to come back?
Speaker 00That links to the the wonder and the worship that that you mentioned just a bit before, Ruth, and that the charity had mentioned in her teaching that when we perhaps when we make those spaces, those unplanned spaces, there's a greater scope for us to rediscover our wonder at God, our worship of Him. Um and and yeah, to to hit the rudder reset to to to make the space for God to wow us again. Perhaps that's the first thing that we need. I'm I'm just drawing a little bit, I'm I'm I'm conscious, there's a lot of the charity said, and we could talk about it um all day, really, but just the top of what she taught, you know, that the Bob Dylan song, The Times There were Changing, you know, that was one of the things that stood out most to me, I think. And and uh partly because there was this sense from the lyrics of that song that you have to notice the new thing that's happening. You need to there's a wave that's coming and you need to get on or you need to get out of the way. It's quite abrupt in that sense. And it got me thinking about Pete Gregg saying something similar this year, that that kind of sense of a wave of God being on the move, and and we've got to notice it, we've got to catch it actually, we've got to have some momentum to to catch that wave. And it struck me as we've been talking that um I have a go at bodyboarding once a year in the summer in Northern Ireland with the kids, and we go to Port Stuart Strand uh and we splash about there like we know what we're doing, next to other people that are pretending they know what they're doing, and uh and I say, Look, kids, lift the the bodyboard up. That's that's why you're not catching the waves. Uh, and then of course to go underneath it. But I think it means push the board down harder. That's how you're gonna catch nothing to do with that, it turns out. It's it's momentum. You've got to so you've got to see the wave that's coming, and you've got to actually stand still. A stillness to watch for the one that you're supposed to catch. And when it comes, you've got to get moving, you've got to catch it. And something of that, I think, is standing out to me from what charity's saying, from what what Pete Greg had shared earlier in the year as well. Now's the time for us to stop and notice uh what is it that God's doing. We need to go that way with that wave, off we go.
Speaker 03Yeah, and I think that's interesting as well, with you saying be still, because what I'm sort of seeing is these young men, a lot of them are attracted to sort of contemplative um forms of worship, you know, not the kind of rock band on the stage, although, yeah, they'll they'll do that as well, but they are um looking at the desert fathers and um, you know, the mystics of the past and really getting into their stuff and spending time and quiet and contemplation. So, you know, I I think part of the making the unplanned spaces and seeing what God is doing is not assuming that because it's all these younger people that are coming in that we need to make things louder and brighter and and all that kind of stuff. That's not what they seem to be being drawn to. So it's just an interesting thing there. That's it all comes back to they want that quiet, they want to be still before God, they want to have space to process what God is saying to them.
Speaker 02Yeah, do you do you know what I'm hearing as well? I'm hearing Sabbath. You know, we talk about Acts 2, and I'm hearing that rest and be still. You know, thankfully, God knows that um my resting and be stilling isn't actually physically being still. I'd like to do that on the moon. So usually, you know, physically active that works, but he he made me, he knows me, it's all good. Um, but there is that Sabbath rest and how we are then restored in God and how our imaginations is I think it's like show 365 on their Sabbath rests prayers, they talk about um God being restoried and our imaginations being restoried in God, and you just think it's a beautiful phrase and a beautiful concept as well that we need, we need those quiet spaces for the restorying um of our imaginations that catch the wonder. And then when there is the space where the Holy Spirit moves and brings uh the miracles, the signs, the wonders that accompany the preaching of his words, then because we're comfortable in the presence of God, and because we're comfortable knowing of his infinite greatness, that that's okay. Everything that God brings, that we can rely and trust on God, that he's equipping us, if it's in just our individual lives, or indeed but it's in churches and groups, because it's not a standoff alone. It's it all happens within the one, doesn't it? You know, I think that's another thing that's just really striking me. We're talking about the church of the future, and almost for me, I'm thinking scraping things back. One of the most beautiful churches I've ever been, and the most holiest of places was I've ever been, was a a church in the Middle East, and there was no lights and there was no flashy or anything. It was a really plain, whitewashed um internal walls, lots of light coming in, simple seats, but the presence of God was phenomenal. And it was just the simplicity of worship and returning to what Jesus has asked and called us to do. And sometimes I think when we think about the church and and the future, you we can go to the big and to the international and the huge and the you know, all of that, and and miss the really important parts, which are the small bits that are happening in our lives, because we are the church, every individual we make up and constitute the body of Christ. Um, and I just I I love that interplay, the interrelationship, the interconnectedness um with all of it. You know, Scott, you said we could chat about charity's teaching all day long, and we really could. There's you know, I I kind of feel like we've scratched the surface, don't you? Yeah.
Speaker 00Yes, indeed.
Speaker 02Yeah. So is there anything before we do wrap up, is there anything, Heather or Scott, that we haven't touched on that you would just really love to kind of chew over a little?
Speaker 03Um, I don't think so. I think we've touched on the main points that that I had. So all good from this end.
Speaker 00Great. You only two little headlines I'd written down to to throw up as uh charities and nothing in the Bible that says that apostles, prophets, and evangelists should be on the edges of church. Just we need them, we need them for what's coming next. Let's get in there. And then I think the other thing she said was really helpful was um instead of talking about apostles, prophets, it can maybe be more helpful to talk about the gift of the apostolic, of the prophetic, because there's a mix for us, there's a mix, and and and maybe that language is I thought that was maybe helpful for us as we try to pursue this um this way of life of the sharing of these roles and gifts.
Speaker 03Yeah, because just on that, as as James, John Paul Jackson, our founder, teaches in or taught in one of the courses that he has that we shouldn't go after a label. You know, we shouldn't want to call ourselves like I am the prophet, Heather, whatever. You know, if you're operating in that gift, other people will recognise that in you without you having to tell them. And I think that's really quite helpful as well, because we can get hung up in labels.
Speaker 02Oh yeah, you don't need to shout about the gifts that you'd be shout about Jesus. Not about the gifts, right? Um yeah. Right. What about headline news? If we've got to finish up, Scott, you left us there with a couple of other headlines, but what would your headline news, your headline news item from today's be then? Have you got just a wee succinct ka chink?
Speaker 00Yeah, make space to stand still so you can see the wave and catch it.
Speaker 02I like that.
Speaker 03Yeah, it's good.
Speaker 00Heather?
Speaker 03Um, I think mines are the times they aren't changing.
Speaker 02Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I I'm kind of feeling like uh what would mine be? Oh, I'm just so overwhelmed with the hope, the sense of hope for the church of the future and the future of the church. Because because of who who who's in it, you know? That's what I'm I'm overwhelmed with today, and all the in a good way, just about God. He's just so great. Look what he's got coming. We can't even, we're not that's not a headline news, though, is it? No, it's a big long paragraph. So I'm just gonna finish up with God is good.
Speaker 00I'll do.
Speaker 02That'll fine. All the time, God is good. Oh, brilliant. Thanks so much, Scott. Thanks, Heather. Um, and thank you to all of you listening today. I hope that God has illuminated all of our hearts and minds. Um, and just remember these podcasts are great to share with others. Um, and before we vermous, Heather, I would love for you to wrap up.
Speaker 01Thanks for listening to the Synergy Sessions podcast.
Speaker 00We hope that you've been inspired by Father, we thank you. We hope that that encourages you.
Speaker 03When Jesus Christ presented back to heaven, you didn't leave us on earth by ourselves, that you sent your spirit to live within each one of us and to help guide us. And we ask, after listening to that teaching from charity, that you would help us to be more in tune with your spirit in our lives, that we will be bold and brave and take time to have those unplanned spaces in our lives, in our congregations, and even within our denominations. That Jesus would be the center of all that we do, not our programs, not our um designs, but we would look to you and we are so thankful for the signs of revival and renewal that we are starting to see in the UK through Gen Z and especially with the young men that you are bringing into the midst. Help the older generations to be faithful, spiritual fathers and mothers to them so that we can disciple them well and that we will leave a solid foundation for the church in this land to grow in future. So, Father, thank you for everybody that you have given the apostolic gift, the prophetic gift, the teaching gift, the shepherding gift, and the evangelistic gift in our land. And may we allow them to operate in the way that you have designed them to do, because this is all about you, and this is all about your plans and what you want to see happening in this land. Thank you for the hope that we're seeing. Amen.
Speaker 00Amen.
Speaker 03Amen.
Speaker 02Well, thank you again, Scott.
Speaker 00Great to be with you guys.
Speaker 03Yeah, thanks, Heather. Thank you. Nice chatting with everyone.
Speaker 02Yeah, absolutely, brilliant time. And we look forward to hearing from you if you've been listening to this podcast and you want to let us know how you found it. But please go and share it, and we'll see you on the next Synergy sessions. So every blessing as you go, friends.