Healthy Apostolic

Alan describes the essence of apostolic ministry and the importance of collaborative leadership as mentioned in Ephesians 4. He uses a biblical plumbline to describe healthy and unhealthy apostolic ministry and explains how it can look different from person to person.

Then listen to Gordon Kennedy, Lynsey Paterson and Heather Sutherland as they discuss through their own APEST (Apostle / Prophet / Evangelist/ Shepherd / Teacher) lens.

Transcript

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SPEAKER_00 0:01

Hi, this is Alan McWilliam.

SPEAKER_04 0:03

And this is Charity Bowman Web.

SPEAKER_00 0:06

And we want to welcome you to the Synergy Sessions.

SPEAKER_04 0:10

Hi, I'm Heber Sutherland, Director of Training for Stream Scotland. I've been joined by Gordon Kennedy and Lindsay Patterson, and we'll be chatting later about Alan McWilliam's teaching on healthy apostolic. But for now, let's listen to what Alan has to say.

SPEAKER_01 0:30

Hi, my name is Alan McGuire, and today I'm here to teach about Healthy Apostolic. So my background really is that I've been involved in church leadership for over 30 years. I've been involved in church planting within the Church of Scotland and I've been involved also in various kind of other training activities. So I've trained people in Through Forge, which is now part of the Kinakairn movement, a church planting training organization over the last 20-odd years. We've trained about 300 odd people in Scotland, and we've seen about 160, 117 new church projects and mission projects started because of that. I've been involved also in other plants and in other networks. I work alongside the Scottish Church Planting Network, who are a group of 16 different denominations and networks within Scotland seeking to see a vibrant church planted and established in every community and network in Scotland. And so, really, for the last 30 years or so, my my role is to start new things, to share the gospel into new places and help other people to do that. And so as I come to talk about this whole thing about healthy apostolic today, uh I hope that you kind of hear that within the context certainly of my own history and experience. And I hope that that'll be helpful for you as you think about what it looks like for us today. So as we think about the apostolic ministry today, I want to just say a few very simple things. First of all, we're not replacing the twelve biblical apostles. Uh they already are well established, and they're not going to be uh this is not we're not talking about uh that kind of apostolic ministry today. We're not talking about holding the office of an apostle or elders, although in some denominations they would argue that that's something that we could do, not to replace the twelve, but to have apostolic leaders uh for today. Uh, but that's not what I'm talking about. Uh I'm talking about the gifting uh or the way of the viewing uh ministry. So really through uh it's really about the kind of the lens or the motivation that people have as they kind of look at Christian ministry. Uh and so when we talk about the apostolic, when I talk about the apostolic, uh you'll hear me talking about the apostolic rather than apostles, uh, and you'll hear me talking uh thinking about the function or the gifting uh of the apostolic. So the th the apostolic gifting is essentially really to help start new things. That'd be the simplest way to describe what it does. Often you kind of sort of hear people talking about uh apostolic leaders as being visionaries or pioneers or adventurers or founders. They're they're often the people who'll go first. Okay, so that's really what we're talking about uh when we think about apostolic gifting. Usually you'll find that they'll be quite entrepreneurial. So they'll actually kind of be people who will think of new things, start new things, try new opportunities, perhaps look at things in a slightly different way. They'll be strategic, so they're thinking about the big picture. So they're thinking about, you know, what we're thinking about planting a church in every community network in Scotland. Um, they're future focused. So again, what comes next? Yes, we see decline in the church, but we recognize that God is on the move. So we're future focused, we're risk takers, often trying things that other people wouldn't necessarily do. And there's a great deal of innovation and creativity that comes with that as well. So um, so you'll sort of see that the the apostolic gifting actually functions not just simply in the church sphere, but actually right across culture into every area of uh culture and society because because the desire that God expresses is this that all things would be reconciled under Christ Jesus, uh, and so uh the rule and reign of Christ would be established in every area, and that includes business and politics and architecture and law and all the other things uh that you kind of get in society. So, what does healthy apostolic look like? And it and to a certain extent, why are we talking about it? And we'll get to that in a minute, but let's talk about what a healthy apostolic will look like. Predominantly it will look like Jesus. Jesus is the model of a healthy apostle, okay? So in Hebrews 3, chapter chapter 3, verse 1, it says this therefore, holy brothers and sisters who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus, whom we acknowledge as our apostle and high priest. And so when you're thinking about healthy apostolic ministry, we're thinking about replicating the character, the call, and the gifting of Jesus. The character. So we're thinking about the kind of fruits of the spirit. We're thinking about, you know, does this person show love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control? And I'm sure I missed one out. But anyway, there you go, that's them. Does it replicate that from Galatians 5, 22 to 23? Do we see people who look and feel like Jesus in terms of how they act, in terms of the character? Uh and and in the calling, uh, Jesus himself, uh right in the beginning of his ministry said in Mark chapter 1, verse 15, that he came to see the breaking out of the kingdom of God. The kingdom of God is near, he said. And what he was saying was this that actually his ministry was to establish the rule and reign of God across every culture and society, every age and time, every tongue, every tribe, every nation, every every people group would be impacted by the ministry that he had. So that was a calling to take it to every person, every place, okay? And then we have the gifting. So what was the gifting? Well, it was that we would go and seek and save the lost, Luke 19, 10. And and actually, what we recognize there fundamentally the apostolic gifting is about uh ushering in people and whole groups of people into the kingdom of God. So healthy apostolic increasingly will mirror every aspect of the the the life and ministry of Jesus, the character, the calling, and the gifting. And why again is that important? Well, it's important because we recognise that actually uh there are some purer examples, let's put it that way, of apostolic leadership uh being shown today. There are uh both uh folks who would actually kind of call themselves apostle and then would you know behave, uh either showing the character that is not Christ-like or or or that they're uh or that their calling or their kind of aspiration or desire is it seems to be less about the extension of the kingdom and more about the kind of the increase of their influence. So all of that kind of stuff is the set of stuff that we've seen, or even where we've seen domineering leaders who actually sort of say, you know, this is my way, and you have to follow me and you have to do everything I say. But again, we don't we don't see that necessarily in the in the character and the calling and the and the gifting of Christ. We we we have Jesus who yeah brings rebuke where rebuke is required, but often his his thing is the invitation into an adventure in the kingdom of God. And so we'll come again to what does unhealthy look like in a as we kind of go through, but let's let's talk more about what the New Testament therefore kind of talks about when we're thinking about um healthy apostolic ministry. First of all, to say that healthy apostolic ministry fits within the Ephesians 4 fivefold ministry. You wouldn't be surprised to hear uh someone from Cairn saying that we've been banging on about 5Q for a long time. We've been talking about APES, we've been talking about Ephesians 4 as a really significant kind of shift in the way that people think about leadership today. Not to the only passages in leadership, but a significant lens through which we begin to understand that actually that leadership today fundamentally needs to be multi-voice. Um, what we actually get in the passage from Ephesians 4 is a very simple teaching. Uh at the beginning, verses 1 through 7, Paul says to the uh to the Ephesian church, what you need to do is lay down a foundation of unity. A unity in terms of what you believe. One faith, one God, one baptism, one Lord, a foundational truth. That actually, if everyone kind of gets a hold of that, then they will be able to build what? Diversity. So that's what he gets to when you get to verses eleven through twelve and thirteen when he talks about the fivefold gifts, you know. So to each is given the gift of, and then it's in verse seven it says that, and then and then in verse eleven it says, uh apostles, prophets, teachers, evangelists, and uh shepherds and teachers. Okay, so the diversity of the gifting, different people doing different things to help the body of Christ flourish, and that leads on to what he then goes on to say in verses 14 to 16, maturity. So maturity where everybody is equipped to do the call that God has got for them, everything so that each one is equipped for the work that God has got for them, so that we would all move into the fullness of the maturity of Christ. That's what Paul is talking about when he's talking about first uh the passage in Ephesians 4. And so what you set up saying is lay the foundation of unity, build on the kind of the mix of or the pillars, if you like, of diversity, these different gifts and abilities that lead to the found the structure being established into maturity, the fullness of what God wants us to. And what we really believe from that comes from that is actually leadership, the gifting, the five-fold gifting, um, leadership when it's expressed as leadership, not just simply everybody having those gifts in different ways in their normal life, which does happen, but particularly when it's functioning at the leadership level, church is meant to be multi-voice. It's not meant to be led by one person or another. It's supposed to be under the Lordship of Christ. We are under shepherds or we are under, we are stewards is the word I like, you know, a good Scottish word. Stewards. Uh and a steward is someone who looks after their master's business but knows that it's not theirs. It isn't owned by them, it but it belongs to the master. And so we are stewards along with others, servants along with others uh of the ministry of Christ. And I think that what we see is that the greater authority comes at the point where we actually start to see that ability to be able to submit to one another, to be able to actually recognize that we all have a part to play. And that actually in that, as we do that, what we recognize is that actually it's great because we can start to say at some point, hey, evangelist, help us to kind of break out into new places and share the gospel in successful and effective ways. And we can talk to the shepherds and we can say, what can we do to create a healthy, safe environment for people who are new to faith to flourish? We can say to each other, how can we do these things? And so as we do that, we will grow, as it says in Ephesians 4, into maturity if we each play our part. And yet in Ephesians uh 2.20, it says this that the church is built on Jesus Christ, the cornerstone, and on the apostles and prophets. The apostolic and prophetic gifting, therefore, is seen in that passage as as foundation laying. It's about uh it's about establishing spiritual DNA, it's about making sure that things are right and are built on the right foundations. And so as we start new things, gotta again remember that often the the the we talked about the apostolic being the ones that start new things and the prophetic often are part of that. That means that we tend to be first in terms of actually getting to things. So it's a timing issue rather than I think an issue about uh one gifting ruling over the other. And I think that uh I I do understand the first Corinthians, uh it does talk about you know first the apostles and the prophets and the evangelists then, etc. etc. So it does give a it looks as though there's a prioritization there. Um and but I think again, my understanding of that, my interpretation of that is actually it's just what we need at certain times, and so it's a timing issue rather than an order or authority issue. Again, that's probably where we'd see quite a range of diversity of views on that. But for me, that helps us because it allows us then to kind of uh to to really kind of uh do what Paul says, which is to submit to one another, uh, you know, so submitting to one another and the gifting that God has given to us absolutely essential. So uh uh thinking about healthy ministry uh healthy apostolic, first of all, it is a fivefold ministry, one of five, multi-voice, foundational, primary in that sense, but only because of the timing thing. Then again, we kind of recognize that actually what we're talking about is that it's not just one-dimensional, though. When we become um aware of the kind of fivefold ministry, we recognize actually God has called us not just simply to be an apostolic person. Yes, that may be our primary gifting, but actually what we sort of see is that we are becoming more like Jesus, insofar as every aspect, all five of these aspects are actually represented in the ministry of Jesus. If you want to sort of see fivefold in perfect form, look at Jesus. And so we have here just an understanding that the that you know that that the that Jesus was a great prophet, says that in Luke uh Luke 7.16, that he was the evangelist who brought the good news of Jesus, that brought the good news in John 3.16, that he was the great shepherd in John 10.11, that he was a teacher, Matthew 5, verse 2. So we see that Jesus is all five of these things, and he's the one that was perfectly formed. And really, all I'm sort of saying in terms of healthy apostolic is it shouldn't be you know sort of so lopsided that that's the only part of a person that's actually being developed. All the other ones should all be there. They're not necessarily the kind of primary, they're not necessarily well developed as with this, but they certainly so and a healthy apostolic person is not one-dimensional. Uh we should reflect again the pattern of Jesus. So when we're thinking again if we put healthy apostolic, we're thinking, and and we're really here reflecting now on what Paul meant when he actually used the word apostles. He was thinking about apostles of the kingdom of God, and he was referring to um uh to a position that was actually created in the Roman Empire uh of Apostles of Rome. So an apostle with a term, a title, a bit like an ambassador, but more than ambassador. Basically, um this is someone who would be commissioned by Rome to bring the culture, tradition, laws, pattern of Rome to any new place that the Roman Empire, the Roman Empire established itself. So the Roman army would go first, they would establish themselves, so I imagine Londinium back in the day, and uh then what would happen is that Rome would appoint an apostle of Rome to go to Londonium and establish the culture, the tradition, the laws, the infrastructure, the the you know, the all of that kind of stuff that actually reflected Rome, and so that in one sense what would happen is that people who walked into that place would sort of say, This feels like Rome, this feels like Rome in terms of how how they function, how they operate, what it looks like, how law and business and commerce, etc., all that sort of stuff, how all of that happened. And so when Paul was talking about an apostle, he was talking about an apostle of the kingdom in the same way that they carry and bring them the the the culture and the and the pattern of the kingdom of God into a new context, whatever that new context was. And so they would be people who would essentially have like the blueprint of heaven, and when they looked at this uh non-Christian environment, which they were going to, whether it's uh geography or a uh an area of culture or society, they would sort of say, This is what the kingdom of God will look like as it lands in this context, this is what it will look like in business, or this is what it'll look like when we think about it in terms of how we do family life, or whatever it is that we're talking about. And so when Paul was talking about an apostolic gifting, he was talking about someone who had the ability to bring the kingdom mindset or the kingdom blueprint, and actually sort of say, when you move into an area, if the kingdom of God broke out here, it would look different in this way or this way or this way. So, for example, um, when we moved into kind of uh a place called Ricasi in Glasgow to plant a church a number of years ago, one of the things that we kind of identified was that the uh that there's significant issues around child poverty. 41% of the kids were over the were in uh were uh under the uh child poverty line. So two out of every five kids. And essentially what we did was we began to kind of sort of say that is that stat is actually not a reflection of the kingdom of God. If the kingdom of God came in this area, then two out of every five kids would not be hungry every weekend. You know, we would be feeding our kids, we would be giving them opportunities, we'd give them education, we would be doing all these other things, and actually that's what we then set off to do. So we sort of said, right, let's set up food bank, and then we set up a food pantry, and then we worked with other people to establish what was essentially a long-term dignified approach to food security and sustainability within that community. Uh, and and that uh significantly did reduce the child to poverty level, and and so we you know, so that was a sign, that was a marker, if you like, excuse me, that we would know that that was actually true. So, again, if you're talking about healthy apostolic, it's about taking new ground for the kingdom. Paul constantly was thinking about taking new ground, new places as he established the work that he was kind of called to do. So, and he was thinking about new territory, so he was moving place to place, he was thinking about new culture, moving from the gent Jews to the Gentiles, from the Greeks to the Romans, and he was looking at new spheres of it uh of life as well. So he was thinking not only about uh the religious sphere, he was also thinking about business and education and law and all of these other aspects. If you you can hear it as he talks to people, like you know, he talked about government and so the kind of whole thing about government, he would talk to uh the Roman uh sort of officials as he kind of went from place to place and usually because he got arrested and taken to them. You know, so so all of that was actually part of his kind of his strategy, and you see that uh as Paul goes into uh as he goes into Athens and Acts chapter 17, that he uses what I would describe as his apostolic gifting, his creative missional imagination to read the culture. You know, there are many idols in this place. Oh, there is one called the idol to the unknown god. Let me tell you about Jesus. This is the one who is the unknown God, and he uses the culture and and to actually help people to engage with the message of Jesus. Again, you know what we're talking about. Uh when you see healthy helpy healthy apostolic is this they are ideas people, they're not intimidated by the blank sheet of the new context, they are blue skies people who are energized by the space to say, well, what would it look like when God breaks out here? And that's the except the the next thing to say, and uh again, healthy apostolic will be breakthrough people, they will be go anywhere to anyone with the gospel kind of people. You see that in Paul. Paul was zealous whenever he went, he was he went on extensive travels uh round the kind of known world at that time. He and he what he stuck at it. That's interesting. So breakthrough people will always have what I would describe as a tenacity, a really kind of you know, overcoming sort of uh the persecution, being willing to kind of put up with things. And he took risks. Um he took risks in terms of the people he took with him, the things that he did, how he actually kind of went about things. He was someone who championed gentile exclusion, which was actually spiritually disruptive. And again, breakthrough people can be quite spiritually disruptive. That's an interesting idea for us today as we think about the recalibration, the church route being recalibrated. And actually, are there some people who are speaking into the church at the moment in a way that is feels like it's spiritually disruptive, but actually potentially could be bringing something really good into the kind of new community. So the building churches, building communities, engaging in spiritual warfare, you'll sort of see that. There's a kind of a anyone who's a breakthrough person knows how to kind of stick at it and recognizes that all of that happens because we are dependent on God. But interestingly, I would sort of say my reflection in the healthy apostolic would also be about being able to sort of say it's actually about being yourself. So uh if you actually kind of look, you'll sort of see there are different styles of apostolic leadership. So you've got Paul who led who is much more missional and mobile, you've got Peter, who is much more formational in terms of getting the church established and church-centric. There was John, who's much more devotional and mystic. You might want to sort of say that Ma Mary, Mary Magdalene, or even Mary, the mother of Jesus, was uh very devotional and compassionate. Both of these women uh were were honored in the early church in particular because of the way that they kind of offered those leaderships. So the point I'm making is that actually people are true to who they are in their own apostolic gifting, and apostolic gifting will look different depending on what your character, gifting, spiritual journey, motivations are, the call that God has given to you. And the the key thing I think in terms of healthy is just being yourself, you know, learn how to be an authentic version of yourself. But hey, why are we talking about it? What happens when things go wrong? What does unhealthy look like? Well, I think that sometimes unhealthy looks like where uh people sometimes for the best motivation are more task focused than people, and so they they can ride over the top of people, they can kind of go, well, you know, you know, it doesn't matter that we lose a few folk out the back door as long as the big as long as the wide open front door is open, and you know, and and actually there is a good motivation there, but actually it's not it doesn't reflect, I don't think, the nature and and the character and the ministry of Jesus. Jesus was very, very, very clear that actually every person counted. You know, we we stop for the one, we don't kind of like just start to say, ah, well, they'll, you know, too bad, you know. And and so that's one of the weaknesses where you see uh task over people, that's a sign of an unhealthy apostolic ministry. Uh and sometimes that leads to exhausting people with constant innovation. And again, that's one of the things about uh apostolic and especially uh immature. I remember, you know, years and years ago, just uh you know, uh going to a meeting where I was I I would kind of come in and I would say, I've got an idea, and they would all groan because it's like, oh, not another idea. Can you not can we finish the 10 that you've already started before we actually move on to the new one? And and again, that's part of the kind of the immature expression of the apostolic that sometimes we we just you know we're pushing and pushing and pushing and pushing, and we're so future focused, and we're you know, there's a hell, let's go, you know, that kind of stuff. That actually we forget that that there's a timing and a process that actually is required, and that's why we need all fivefold ministries, particularly the shepherds and teachers, to help to bring good kind of people, personal stuff in terms of how we actually function as a body of people. Um, and again, I suppose that would lead into the next thing, which is that sometimes you sort of see poor follow-through, good starters, poor finishers. And and and so, for example, you know, one of the things I remember uh again early in the working white, people would sort of be so frustrated because I'd be sort of saying, Come on, more, we need to go out further, we need to do more evangelism, we need to run another alpha course. And and they were sort of saying, But we've got these 10 people already that we don't know what to do with, and you you want another 10 people and you know, another 20 people, what's going on? And actually, what they needed to do was they needed to say, look, you need to value discipleship, you need to value deepening and bedding things in, and it and and my uh my always outward, always adding people in kind of attitude actually became a bit of a problem in terms of that, and I needed to learn how to do that. Where we start to see uh again another example of an immature exact uh or unhealthy pattern of apostolic is where uh people actually kind of think that they can lord over others due to the gifting or the title. And often that um that's actually underpinned, you know, the sort of the insecurity that actually kind of causes people to do that is actually often underpinned by a kind of an unteachable entitlement, you know, a kind of an arrogance that sort of says, you know, I know best because I'm now the apostle, I'm the one that can do this, or I've been an apostolic apostolic gift and you've recognised it. So I need to be the person who makes decisions, and and and that leads to the kind of the attitude that sort of says, you know, it's either my way or the highway, you know. And so again, back to this thing of, you know, I don't care about you and our chucky overboard to make you go forward. And I I say these things recognizing that over 30 odd years of ministry, I and moving in this particular ministry, I know that I've seen some of these horrible things in my own life, in my own ministry. I I regret them now, but and and I look back on them and I think, hey, surely there's a better way to do things. And so uh so these these these are some of the kind of markers. Some of the other problems, though, are where you see apostolic or the gifted people being led by immature or insecure pastors and teachers, and that often leads to significant conflict. Often what happens is that the apostolic person will come in and sort of say, Well, what about if we tried this and what if we tried this and what if we tried this? And the the pastor who's concerned about the kind of health and security and the comfort and the sort of sense of well-being of the community, as he should be or she should be, then sort of says, No, we don't have time for that, and we don't have time for that, and we don't have time for that. But what that does is it actually blocks the apostolic gifting. And so what tends to happen is that apostolic gifted people tend to leave and go and do that elsewhere. They tend to express it in other places, they'll go into uh into other aspects of the church or other aspects of you know of society and they'll like and they'll use it in those places, but actually within the church, they'll never get to do those things. Um I remember again one of the kind of the really interesting things was a very, very gifted guy who was high up in the uh in Glasgow City Council and was one of the elders of the church, and you know, he made strategic decisions and uh business plans and developed all sorts of things every day of his life. But then he came and he sat in an Elders Kirk session meeting and he was asked to organise the rotas for the welcome teams. You know, it's just you know, to me, it just blew my mind because I just thought, you know, we're wasting the talent that's there. We're missing the opportunity for having some of these people involved. So some of that I think is important. Uh there are many apostolic people, but a few who are mature are functioning well in their own leadership. And and let me tell you uh why that is. It's because of the fact that there's n that actually this is not something which actually many people get to actually express, and many people get to kind of be mentored and tutored and taught and and then nurtured and then it helped to actually kind of expand and grow. If you are a shepherd teacher, so I I was a pastor in the Church of Scotland, uh, as I say for 30 odd years, and uh it took seven years for me to be trained, seven years, so theology college, then probation, then other things, and I learned how to do things like preach a sermon. You know, I remember having 74 sort of cue cards and taking 45 minutes and driving everybody up the wall with what I thought was the best sermon ever, but an extra fact it was rubbish, and I needed to be told that was absolutely awful, don't ever do that again. But the thing was there was grace for me to learn that because actually people said, We know what this guy's doing, he's actually learning how to be a pastor, he's learning how to be a teacher. So we'll give you a chance to do that, and yeah, you'll make a mistake and it'll be awful, but that's okay because actually we want you to grow and we know that you'll make mistakes as you go. But where is that in the for the apostolic? Very few opportunities, and that's one of the things that certainly uh Kieran is really kind of keen to do. We have we have mentoring groups and can uh for people who want to grow in the apostolic, and uh our friends in streams do the same thing for those who want to grow in the prophetic. So that's that's some of the things, right? Now uh here's uh here's just a few things then about why do we need to grow in the apostolic today. Well, we need to do that because we recognize we're we are in a transition time where we move from post-Christendom, we're moving into a time after the church is dominant, if you like, in the culture, the Christendom culture, into a place where the church is on the edge. And so we're having to re-evangelize our communities. And for that, you need apostolic, prophetic, and evangelistic people. And so that's one of the key things is actually if we want to take new ground again, we need to le let these gifts flourish. Uh if you want to see kingdom possibilities, then you need to have people who have got that ability. Uh, you know, so actually, yeah, there are churches that are closing, but actually we could replant into them or we could we could reinvigorate some of the communities, uh, the people, not necessarily the buildings, but the people to help them to create new communities of faith, even in places where the churches technically, this building has closed, but actually the Christian faith is vibrant. We need people who have got courage, and again, apostolic people have got courage and confidence in the gospel. We believe that the harvest is white and that Christianity works, and that actually God is still on the move, even in the midst of this time with significant pruning and recalibration. I think you'll sort of see that the mature apostolic will preach the word with authority and with the attestations of signs and wonders. And so, again, I wouldn't necessarily say that's common today in Scotland, but it is definitely part of the Scriptural kind of um if you like markers of what mature apostolic will look like. We do need the translocal. We've talked, I did a teaching on that about the two-winged church, about the local and the translocal expression of church being the totality of the church and that actually the validity of the translocal today needing to be re-established to allow us to be able to actually kind of move in a much more missional, movemental approach rather than the settled, established pattern of Christendom. That we need the relational networkers that actually are apostolic people tend to be, which energizes the whole of the body of Christ into thinking about whole system thinking, you know. So why are we thinking about all of these big things and not just simply about the local congregation? And also, you know, an apostolic personal raise up and train at pioneers to create movemental thinking and action. So, you know, so we need people who have got the maturity to do that, and I think that as we do that, um, you know, we can grow in these things, we can grow in developing these things uh by taking some of the tests, reading some of the books. We recommend uh the book 5q by Alan Hirsch, a really excellent kind of book. If you're interested in the kind of in growing in these things, then come and talk to us. If if you've taken the course, if you take the 5Q tests uh at like the fivefold survey.com and you come out as apostolic or prophetic, then get back in touch with us because we actually want to kind of help you to grow in terms of coaching, mentoring, training, teaching, and giving you a place, a culture, a space in which you can flourish. The the Forge course, which we run in Cairn is part of all of that as well. And that's uh really, I suppose the last thing I want to start to say is this listen, as you as you listen to this teaching, I just want to pray for you. I really want to pray that that that God will release upon you a greater measure of the apostolic gifting, that actually all the things that are healthy, good in the ministry, character, calling of Christ that you know is in you, that you're motivated by, that you get excited by as you begin to hear these things. That Lord, I pray, would you just increase that apostolic gifting within each one who hears this? I want to pray for an increase in creative missional imagination. I want to pray for a boldness and a courage, a tenacity, a breakthrough spirit, Lord God, that allows people really to kind of get a hold of everything that you've got for them and then really to kind of press on and make that happen. And I pray that that would be in a healthy way, though, in a mature way, flourishing only as we see the character gifting and calling of Christ being replicated in the life of people. And Lord, I want to pray. Uh Lord, I I I I make that declaration that there is going to be healthy, mature, apostolic uh ministry released within the body of Christ in Scotland and Ireland and in all the other places that hear this message. Uh, and and I pray that as that happens, Lord God, that all of the glory would go to you, that the kingdom would come, that the King Jesus, High King of Heaven, would rule and reign in full measure until that day when you come again in glory and where all things are established. Lord, I pray that you'd that the that the that the ruin that the government of you would increase, that your uh that your rule and reign would expand to every uh tribe and trum tongue and nation and people. And I asked our God that we would be part of that. Whoever hears this would be part of that now. In Jesus' name I pray. Amen.

SPEAKER_04 33:36

Hi, so welcome back. As I said earlier, we've got Gordon and Lindsay with us today. Um let's start with Lindsay. Would you like to give us an introduction as to who you are for the people who haven't listened to the baby? Um where have they been? But just in case they've missed it, who are you? Where are you? And which of the eight test lenses have you been listening to that teaching by Alan West?

SPEAKER_03 34:06

Thanks, Heather. Hello, everybody. My name is Lindsay Patterson. I live uh in a small village called St. Maidow's, which is just outside Perth. And uh there I'm involved in the local Church of Scotland. I'm an elder in the St. Maidows and Confonds Parish Church, but I also lead um a Perth Presbyterian mission initiative called In Together, which is about reaching and serving and creating a new worshiping community for families who have children with additional support needs. And also one day a week I have the pleasure of working um for care movement. Uh and in the past, I've headed up um the team that leads Forge. So that's the pioneer training around planting new expressions of faith. Um, so that means my week is is pretty full, and and no week, uh no day is ever the same. Um, but it also means there's a great synergy between being part of a learning team and also being a practitioner on the ground, and both those things uh can come together really helpfully. Um and my apex gifting is I am a shepherd apostle. So they would be my kind of primary gifting and my secondary gifting, which um is a little bit like being a push-me-pull-me. Um that sometimes the apostle is the person that's sent, and the shepherd can be the person that's more about creating that kind of place of belonging and and health. And so sometimes in when they work well together, there's a great synergy between them. But sometimes I can be like doing the hokey koke of like step in and step back out again, um, which sometimes can can not be helpful.

SPEAKER_04 35:42

That's interesting. I've just got this picture in my head of Dr. Doolittle and you having two heads now, but I'll I'll discard that.

SPEAKER_03 35:50

I remember speaking to somebody who was saying, Oh, a potfel and shepherd sometimes, you know, traditionally there can be some friction between those two giftings. And I said, Yeah, the good thing is I don't have to go anywhere to get an argument, I can have that with myself.

SPEAKER_04 36:06

Yeah, okay. Thanks for that, Lindsay. Um Gordon, what about you? What do you want to divulge to the airwaves about who you are, where you're at, um, and what a pest gifting you're bringing to this?

SPEAKER_02 36:18

Thanks, Heather, and uh hello everybody. I'm Gordon Kennedy. I've been a Church of Scotland minister now for 32 years. We're presently serving in Craig Locker, which is in southwest Edinburgh. Um, I want to see a suburb of a medium city, not really a big complain of being a big city. Um my epace uh always comes out with teacher at the top. Um I'm I'm interested in prophetic and quite often end up doing the work of an evangelist. So he is the teacher is definitely the big one.

SPEAKER_04 36:59

Interesting combination, yeah. Yeah. So for those who don't know me, I'm Heather Sutherland, as I mentioned at the very beginning of the podcast. Um, I'm part of the leadership team for Streams Ministries in Scotland, which means that I train people in prophetic. Um, and I also do a lot of some background work and I've also been involved in evangelism. I'm currently living just across the border from Scotland. Um, I think I'm nine miles from the border on the wonderful holy island of Lindisfarne. Um, and I spent 20 plus years as a Church of Scotland minister's wife. Um, but yeah, so my apest um tends to come out. It Shepherding always comes up there, but I'm in denial about that. Um, yeah, um, yeah, I'm just not not having that one in some ways. Um, but prophetic teacher or teacher prophetic, depending when I answer the questions, those two tend to be sort of round about the top and they sometimes swap around. Um but yeah, so that's where we're looking at it. But Alan is very much in the apostolic camp, as it were, and we've just heard his teaching. So Gordon, maybe start with you. Was there anything in particular that jumped out at you looking at it through your sort of teacher's lens um about what Alan had to say?

SPEAKER_02 38:43

Well, uh thanks Heather. Um, I think I was I was really encouraged uh to hear the amount of Bible there was, um, especially in the first half of Alan's uh teaching. Um maybe it's uh a a lazy kind of stereotype, but you sometimes think uh these blue sky apostles get all these great ideas and they're off. And it only tangentially gets grounded in scripture. But I think what Alan was saying about uh the idea of healthy apostolic, uh there was a lot of Bible India and and well used a scripture. Um the the the connection between the the character, the calling and the gifting of Jesus and the apostolic was was well worked through um with various um scripture references there. So I as a teacher my heart really responds to that.

SPEAKER_04 39:41

Good. And what about the shepherd and Lindsay?

SPEAKER_03 39:45

Well, I think um this will not surprise the shepherds, and also Heather, I just want to say it's fine to have a shepherd in your feed nest. So I just want to reclaim the shepherds for missional for missional purposes, and you know, maybe there'll be another podcast on that to come.

SPEAKER_04 40:01

I just don't see it in me. That was what I meant.

SPEAKER_03 40:04

Yeah, yeah. Um, so I mean, I guess as a shepherd and coming with that perspective, I was really delighted to hear that we're talking about healthy apostolic. Um, because I think there are the the danger with these things is that we see a gifting in somebody and we elevate them before their character is ready for them to go. And and that that's then why sometimes we can end up with people maybe with not such good examples of of people in not just apostolic giftings, but in other giftings too. And so I think across the APES and the fivefold, that kind of idea of maturity and growing into your gifting and your character together and the two things, the two things both being important. Um, and I think also as well, Alan raised some really good questions that I'm sure we'll probably come on to talk about is how do we nurture um that and how do we create spaces where people can grow in that in their giftings and there's a healthy part to it. Um, and the other bit that I just want to say is I think also as a shepherd, it's really helpful to have an understanding. Well, maybe this is true actually from any with any kind of um part of the APIS, it's really helpful to really understand that people are going to come at things from a slightly different perspective than you. And I'm just looking back and thinking in my in my work, which has been sometimes in ministry and sometimes in in secular and statutory organizations, I think if I hadn't understood the gifting of an apostle, they would probably be the people that would have annoyed me the most. Because actually, apostolic people really disturb the equilibrium of things that are static. And and there's a gift in that. And there's a danger coming with a shepherd heart that actually we quite like the comfy and the cosy and everybody feeling comfortable. But actually, the danger with that is that we get far too comfortable and cozy, and actually that's not what God's calling us to. And so I think really understanding that God has a purpose for these people, that this is part of the gifting, it's part of what Jesus did. And you know, when we're looking at apest, that's who we're looking at. We're looking at a mirror of a maturity in that gifting that would represent Jesus. And so um the the the apostle really holds something about the DNA, the kind of missional idea and the heart and the values that I think is really important. And um, and if we didn't understand that about why we were doing it, I could really easily get annoyed with them, even although it's one of my giftings too.

SPEAKER_04 42:51

Yeah, I I felt it was really quite interesting when he was talking about you know the the character calling and gifting in terms of the apostolic. I've trained oh uh 20 odd years now. Um I've been a teacher and with Streams Ministries, and one of and when we're training the prophetic, one of the main emphasis that we have on the foundational courses we do is that to God in a sense your character is so much more important in your gifting. You know, are you approaching people as as Jesus approached them? Are you showing them what the kingdom of God is like and how their heavenly father wants to interact with them? And you know, the fact that I've maybe never given a prophetic word for um teen years, that's neither here nor there because that's not my label, if you like. Um so it was quite interesting to hear Alan's take on that. And also his his thinking about what healthy and unhealthy apostolic looked like. Um I must admit that when he started talking about unhealthy apostolic, all I was feeling my triggers being, you know, somebody was pressing my buttons and thinking, oh, I remember, you know. And so we can I think without having the word apostolic attached to it, I think we can all identify times maybe when we were under a leadership, whether that's within the church or in our secular jobs or whatever it happened to be, where we were under that unhealthy um sort of umbrella of that kind of leadership and uh apostolic ministry. So it's it's good that we're now getting to a position where people are looking, well, what is the healthy? And it comes back to looking like Jesus. And I think that's what came to me was that it's the same for all the apest, you know. The teachers want to teach the way that Jesus taught, the prophets want to prophesy in the way that Jesus did, the evangelists want to evangelize, the shepherds, you know, Jesus was called the good shepherd. And um who have I missed? That was everybody I just did it in the wrong order. Um, but yeah, we all want to be like Jesus and we want to grow to be like Jesus. Um yeah, so anything else that you maybe picked out before we go on to the main question that I want to dig into a bit.

SPEAKER_02 45:56

Before we go on a wee bit, I think we can't say that often enough. Um that being like Jesus, becoming like Jesus is the journey of discipleship. Um and so when we talk about gifting, um, we're not defined by our gifting, but by our becoming like Jesus. Um and and gifting is almost a subset of that. It's like a consequence of becoming like Jesus rather than um, oh I'm gifted in this, so I'd better try and fit Jesus in somewhere. Yeah, and Jesus comes first, and and then the other things follow from that or or flow from that.

SPEAKER_03 46:42

Yeah. Gordon, I would agree with that. There was a bit Alan said, which is that learning to be an authenti an authentic expression of yourself. Yeah. And I think one of the dangers with APEST is that we read what an apostle is, and you come out as an apostle gifting, and so you become more like that apostle of what the stereotype of apostle is going to be. And um I I think that's not helpful. It leads people down a path, but actually, God has called us to use our apostolic gifting in the context and in our gifting and in our character. So, for example, for me as a shepherd apostle, I'm always going to be concerned about the people that I bring with me in going. That probably means as an apostle, I'm going to move at a slower pace because actually I'm not just going to charge ahead if things are going well. Um, and and I think that I've really kind of really kind of thought about that in in the last week while that actually who I show up as an apostle is going to be different. But also that my shepherd gifting is really helpful for apostles because sometimes it could be their blind spot. And actually being able to speak into that space is where we get the benefit of the diversity of of apex, doesn't it? It's where we get to be able to see things that maybe that we're blind to. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 47:58

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 47:59

Yeah, I just wanted to share that.

SPEAKER_04 48:00

Alan, yeah, because when Alan was talking about what unhealthy apostolic looked like, he said um it was when you became task-focused rather than people focused. So I think your combination of giftings there would, you know, be helpful. Um, because I think he was talking about, you know, not being concerned about people leaving through the back door as long as the front door was open enough and we could get people in and um the the new things were happening and so on. But yeah, Jesus was concerned for the people as well. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:39

For me, the the bit on the unhealthy uh apostolic section that really struck a chord was exhausting others with unhealthy innovation. You know, what's what's your new idea this week? We had ten last week, what are we getting this week? And that it's it's almost as though the apostolic vision seems too big at times, and there's too many things going on, and and the apostolic persons not taking time to sit down and uh and ask that, well, which one of those times should we do just now? Um and step on. Um but I in that section, I I really want to honor Alan and affirm his courage in um identifying times in his ministry when he he had been unhealthy in in his apostolic practice and and how he had grown from that. And and I think it's easy to to have a section like unhealthy apostolic and talking vague generalizations of some people do this and some people do this. But we want to kind of stop and say, well, thank you, Alan, for for your name on that uh and and your story and saying that that's a courageous thing and and a good example to us all. Um about authenticity. We don't always get it right. And and sometimes we if we talk about that sensitively, it can help others.

SPEAKER_04 50:07

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I have I have the privilege of being married to someone who's got apostolic gifting but is also an external processor, and then wonders why I don't get excited about all the ideas.

SPEAKER_03 50:24

Sorry, Ian, if you're listening to this, switch off now. That's why you meant married somebody with prophetic gifting, Heather, so you could discern.

SPEAKER_04 50:33

Yeah, that I yeah, it is difficult. And again, we've got to remember ourselves where we're coming from and recognising that sometimes people with apostolic gifting, they're not necessarily saying that we're gonna do everything that comes, but that's just the way that they're maybe kind of um filtering out what not to do. But the way it comes across to us and how we're wired is that oh well, the apostolic person or the person with the apostolic gifting has said this, therefore, there this must be what God wants us to do. And as you say, like with the exhaustion bit because they're coming out with so many ideas. Um, but when Alan was talking about that, my my mind went back to Matthew 11:30, where Jesus says, My yoke is easy and my burden is light. And I think it's part of the discernment process for both the apostolic and non-apostolic people, is that that's something we should use, you know. Is this feeling like a really heavy load that we're expected to carry? If it is, then maybe it's not Jesus. Maybe it was a good idea, not a God idea.

SPEAKER_03 51:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 51:54

Um that was kind of where I was was thrown back to. Um but there was one question that came up to me, and I I really feel that it would be worth kind of digging in a little bit more. Was that when Alan mentioned about training, and the when he was training to be a Church of Scotland minister, that took seven years. And he said that people would give him a little bit of leeway there because he knew he was training and you wouldn't always get things right. Um and I was just wondering, you know, why is that not the same for other apests? You know, the shepherds probably can be kind of tucked in there, and the teachers a little bit as well, because of you know the model of of leadership that we've experienced in the Church of Scotland. But why, if we've got the others, why is there not the same leeway or expectation from I just want to throw that open for some comment from other places.

SPEAKER_03 53:06

Can can I cut can I come in there, Heather? I just tend to be slightly um tongue-in-cheek when I say this. I think the reason why we've got really good teaching models for shepherd teachers is because actually they've stayed around long enough to make sure that they care for people and give them good teaching. One of the reasons why apostles who don't have good teaching is that apostles are the way off our apostling. Um, but actually, even if we look at this in secular ways, so if we think it's about somebody that's an entrepreneur, actually, one of the things we hear about entrepreneurs is it's actually really hard to find pathways in, and how do you find mentoring and how do you find training? So there's something about the gifting in itself, yeah, that um means that we might that gifting might not value or place a higher priority on the teaching and coaching of other people. Now, I think we need to speak into that, and I think that's something about reclaiming and thinking about actually how do we raise up apostolic leaders, where we're going to have to ask of current apostolic leaders, you're you're going to have to give a bit of your time that's not necessarily about building your new thing, but about building the apostolic um DNA of the kingdom that is coming. And I think that asks a lot of people that have got apostolic gifting because they're away off with another idea and they've seen another thing and another sparkly thing, and they're they're like little magpies running after that. Um and so yeah, exactly. Exactly. So um, and and I mean that in the nicest possible way with the people with the apostolic gifting. So I please don't hear that as a criticism. But I I think there'll be other things, and Gordon, you probably have some ideas about why do we find it so difficult for teaching with people with apostolic gifting?

SPEAKER_04 54:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:49

I I think um language is important. Um when it when Alan spoke about the function and gifting of um the apostolic person near the beginning of his talk, start new things, go first, entrepreneurial, big picture, future focus. How do you teach people those things? I think maintaining might be a better work or apprenticing even um if folks feel that they are being called into an apostolic area of service or or their their April s gifting, if you do one of these um chats comes out apostolic, put them alongside an app someone who's an apostolic person, um to to live with them, to work with them, to share with them, just to be to be mentored an apprentice. Because I don't know how you teach people to be entrepreneurial. Um so I think that's that's an important um element as far as the person who's exercising their apostolic gifting. If if the other eight um giftings could persuade them that maintaining was a shiny thing, yes, this is this is this is taking new ground. That was a phrase Alan used about taking new ground. Um maintaining people into apostolic gifting is taking new ground and extending the reach of the apostolic gifting in the church. So putting some time into that should match with their sense of of gifting if if we see it in that way. Um I think um teaching is teaching is not only about learning a body of material which you're gonna it's not about learning a curriculum in the gospel that you're gonna pass on. It's not only an exchange of information, but it's easier to think in that way and to come up with a curriculum. You know, we need to teach people what's in Deuteronomy, we need to talk about um church leadership, we need to talk about these things. Um, so you can put a curriculum together. I'm just not sure how you do that. I don't know what curriculum would look like for an apostolic.

SPEAKER_03 57:16

I think one of the things is that it would actually be based on real life missional context. So actually having I love the idea of mentoring for for uh apostles. I I think that is absolutely right, Gordon. I think you're onto something, and I think it needs to be a bit of um boots on the ground and come and see. Um, because I think you're right. I think either somebody has an entrepreneurial flair, there's some of that, like like I was thinking about this for Shepers, like you sometimes can't teach people to care. But they've either got that in them or they don't. And I think that's the gifting that we're talking about. But there is a bit about teaching people, um, if you're apostolically gifted, it's not actually healthy for you to go on your own. It's not healthy for you not to have accountability, it's not healthy if you're what you're doing doesn't actually match up to any theology that's in the Bible. So actually, there's really good things here that we can model to people with apostolic gifting. And I think the other thing I would say is to be able to raise up apostolic leaders, we need to be able to spot in our congregations and in our churches who are the people that have that are asking these awkward questions that aren't satisfied just with the here and now, but they're seeing opportunities and challenging and stretching us to see other things. Because actually, the the easiest thing is is to kind of like make them be quiet because actually sometimes it's really difficult what they're saying. They're asking questions that are difficult to answer. Um, but actually, what we need to do is to spot who they are and then look at how do we then create opportunities where they can come alongside somebody with a more mature apostolic gifting and just to be able to identify that. And um, I hope my daughter won't mind me mentioning here, but I remember her as a little toddler, and um her phrase was I'll do it myself. That was her mantra. She was determined, she had her own thoughts about how she was going to do something. Um, she wanted to learn by doing, not just by being taught or by being cared for. And now I look back on that and I I because I know her and she's in her 20s now, I can see easily that she she probably does have an apostolic gifting. And actually, that's what was difficult about parenting her. And so, actually, that's maybe a lens that I hadn't thought about is like how do we look at our children and our family and think about actually what is their APS gifting, and how do we raise up children um and young people that have an apostolic gifting? Because sometimes actually they can be quite hard to parent. Maybe that's a whole other podcast, synergy people, that we could do is parenting through an APS lens. Oh my goodness, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 59:54

I mean, a long, a long time ago, so long ago, it was last century, when I wasn't even. School. Um, there were kind of two routes into certain professions. There was the go off to full-time college or university, and after three or four years, you could then start working in engineering or science or whatever. The other route was get a job in that area and you do day release or you do night school to pick up the book learning, as it were. But the main focus in that model was on actually working and learning as you work. And I wonder if as the culture has lost sight of the have a job with day release. We've done that in the church, and we think, you know, trying to send an apostle to sit in a classroom for five days a week and read lots of books, you you're gonna kill it right out of them. They need five days a week working on it and time to come apart with an experienced apostolic practitioner and reflect on on how they're doing and what they're doing. But I wonder if that model is is helpful.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:10

Um yeah, a bit more like an apprenticeship because I think when Alan was talking about that in the podcast, um he sort of said that people would understand that he was in a training process, yeah, and therefore he was gonna make mistakes that you know his first sermon was not gonna be the best thing ever. But how do we get sort of people in in church context, whether that's local or translocal, to see that for some of the other apest giftings? You know, we're talking here about the apostolic, but I think the same could probably be said of the prophetic and the evangelists as well, in that sometimes the expectation is you've got that gifting in you, therefore you you are the fully mature expression of that from the get-go, and there isn't necessarily the same understanding that they've got to learn and do things just like teachers and shepherds do, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:28

Yeah, I think that's exactly right, Taylor. Um in in lots of congregations in churches, there's no understanding of what the e-pest giftings are, and there's no expectation that training would be required. And so surely the first step is to raise the awareness that the the only gifted person in the congregation is not the teacher. Yeah, they they th there are other gifted people and they all need the same affirmation, um, acceptance, um, but a recognition that that training is required. Why on earth do we think anybody can do anything in the church without being trained is beyond me. Um we we should have a much higher value on mentoring, training, apprenticing uh people to mature in in their areas of service than than we do.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:29

Yeah. Yeah. So I think there's also something I think there's also something about the way that we set up jobs for people who are apostolically gifted. Because if you think about somebody who's apostolic, who sees the opportunity for the new, who has vision, who can is entrepreneurial, is going to take risks. I mean, lots of these skill sets do not sit well with established institutions. Even just the way of like going and being and in a congregation or in a parish where there might be an expectation that you're there for like 10, 15, 20 years to really embed and do that. Anybody with apostolic gifting is going to get twitchy beyond even like a two-year frame time frame because actually their gifting means that often they can see things beyond the here and now. And some of them will move. So some of them people with apostolic gifting might be better in a translocal um uh kind of ministry rather than in a local one. But I think it does ask us questions about how do we create spaces in our denominations for people with apostolic gifting that actually can really help us take on and take on new ground and think about, you know, we're in a huge change in Scotland of what our um the church landscape looks like. And yes, there's lots of things closing down, but actually in that there is opportunity. And if we if we do not raise up the apostles, then we are really going to find taking that new ground much, much harder.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:01

Yeah. So I think Alan mentioned um Paul talking in Ephesians, and it yeah, he mentioned Ephesians 4, but I think he also mentioned Ephesians 2.20 that says that the church is built on the foundation of the apostles and the prophets. Um I came across a very unhelpful um article online when I was looking into that, and it was saying that um we don't have any apostles and prophets in the current um day. It was all based on the foundations were laid back in the first century, and therefore we don't need to redo the foundations. We just, and I was yeah, uh the hackles were going. But I think that is important that as people within the church in the widest sense, that that's the kind of scriptural reference that we've got there is that you know, we've got to build on what the apostles and the aproph and the prophets or the apostolic and the prophetic gifted people are seeing that God wants us to do, and that's what we you know we base it on, and then build from there. But yeah, I think that needs to be refined.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:20

Um notwithstanding that I think Ephesians 2.20 is a whole podcast on its own. Yeah, um I think I think um Alan spoke about the apostolic gifting being part of uh one dimension of uh a whole or apest gifting. So that insight cuts two ways. Um if you're if you're thinking of growing a congregation or growing a ministry or growing a work of any kind, where are all of the epeshe giftings? And uh why would we think of of trying to exercise ministry without seeking out all of these giftings in whatever it is we're doing? And and the flip side of that is I'm not sure any of them necessarily has priority. All of the five giftings need to learn how to submit to one another, yeah, yeah, and and and to pull together, as it were, uh, rather than you know, oh I've got the vision, I've got this clear blue sky thinking, I know where we're going, so I'm taking the lead. No, no. It's it's a it's a share, a kind of a uh uh servant leadership where each serves the other.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:48

Um I think that's quite amazing the way that God has created that, because he knows if we don't do that submitting, all of us have got a desire to go and do that, and actually we can we can only see things in our perspective, and that's just so unhealthy. And I think there's a real kind of humbling and surrender and just um a dependency that God is is teaching us in in working in an APEST way is that not one of us has it all, yeah, and and that is really helpful, I think.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:20

Yeah, and I I think that kind of nicely brings us back um to kind of where we started, and that it needs to look like Jesus, you know, um, because Alan was saying that Jesus encompasses or embodies all five aspects of APE. He wasn't just apostolic all the time. There was times when he was, there was times when he was prophetic, there was times he was evangelistic, there was times he would shepherd, and there was times that he would teach. So they would come to the fore as each one was needed. And I think, yeah, as a as a church, we need to um recognise that that there are times that the apostolic does need to come to the fore. And there was times that, you know, it's some of the other gifts that need to come to the fore. So so yes, I think our time's just about up. As you know, we've already said, we've thought of topics off of this that could cover at least another two or three podcasts. Um, so we'll wait and see if we're asked back to divulge into other stuff. But just finally, is there anything else that either of you two want to kind of make sure that we cover before we round this off?

SPEAKER_03 1:09:43

I guess the only thing for me would be around God give us eyes to see those that have got apostolic gifting and give us space and ways in which we can raise them up into the maturity of their gifting.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:59

Gordon. I really like when Alan was talking about the apostolic person as establishing a culture. Um, it it's not just a set of tasks. So we've done this, we've done this, we've done this, we've ticked off the box, we can move on to the next thing. Which you could think of when you hear people describing apostolic. The the deep um shifting of a culture um it is a long-term commitment. Um and if that's part of the apostolic DNE, um all the rest of us need to help the apostle apostolic folks stick with that. Um it it you're not shifting a culture in in ten months, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:47

Yeah. Yeah. So Lindsay, I think you you kind of hit on something there that um just as you were mentioning about um creating space. So I'd just like to ask, could you possibly just round us off with a with a short prayer that you would pray for for the rest of us and you know, making space for the apostolic?

SPEAKER_03 1:11:12

Yeah, I'd love to. Thank you, Heather. So, Father God, we just give you all that we have talked about today. We thank you. We thank you for Jesus. We thank you that he was an apostle that showed us mature gifting. We thank you that we have his example to look upon. And we thank you that actually you've created the dependency on us to not be able to go and do this on our own, that we need other people to be able to do that. And we thank you for the apostles in our land. We thank you for their vision, we thank you for their ability to see what could be rather than what is here now. And God, we we pray that Scotland is a nation where we can raise up healthy apostolic um uh leaders. We pray for pathways and we pray for mentoring um of apostolic people with apostolic gifting. Let us be known for that. Let us create a space where we don't just limit people by the structures that we have, but we create pathways and movements that allow people to become more like you. And we ask that in Jesus' name. Amen.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:28

Amen. Well, thanks for listening, everybody, and we will see you on the next Synergy Podcast. Thanks for listening to the Synergy Sessions podcast.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:39

We hope that you've been inspired by what you've heard, and we hope that that encourages you as you press in for what God has got for you in the future.